# And to Think I can't See it on Mulberry Street -- Six Seuss Books retired for racism **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [March 2, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113 "2021-03-02T14:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/21 "2021-03-02T16:32:04Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The responsibility falls, as it often must, on the parents who will likely be reading to the child. Eventually, when the child is old enough, he or she will see the framing info and be able to look into it further, if interested. Are Seuss books more often read TO the child or BY the child? I think I first encountered most of Seuss when I was allowed to pick books for myself at the library. It seems to me that by the time the child is old enough to see and understand the framing info, the Seuss book itself is likely too juvenile and they’ve moved on to other books. I don’t know how you’d write a framing statement at the age level congruent with the text of the book itself. I also think it is problematic to say that the child needs to be the one interested in looking further into the racism present in the book, and that if they’re not interested, then ok, fine, they can absorb the racism unimpeded. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/22 "2021-03-02T16:58:19Z")
Assuming that copyright is not further extended (and it doesn’t appear that there is political will to do so in the near future), these will start becoming available for anyone to print their own version of in about 12 years. Whether that be the original or an updated/edited version. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/23 "2021-03-02T17:21:50Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > t’s not like the concept of modifications for new editions is a new concept. > > Yep. It is in _1984_, for instance… Except, in that world, they would then remove the other works to try and modify history. You know, the very thing I explicitly said would not be the case when issuing new editions. The old ones would remain and be available, and thus history would not be altered. There is a reason my posts contain more than one sentence. Even if you’re going to pull out one sentence to reply to, it would be nice if you’d actually read the rest of it. Or, if I wanted to reply with a one-liner, I could say “Call me when you actually object to all the edits made in Dickens’ works.” However, I don’t really think that would contribute much to the conversation. People would either have to spend a lot of time unpacking my meaning, or would just ignore me. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/24 "2021-03-02T17:32:49Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’d far rather, if they’re still in print at all (and I admit I’d never heard of some of these books), that they be published with a new foreword about evolving standards and racism, and with a bibliography at the end of anti-racism books and websites. I’m opposed to burial or suppression of a part of our past that makes us uncomfortable, especially when it is part of the life’s work of a very accomplished and significant artist, as I think Dr. Seuss is. I agree, but in a cartoon, a stereotype doesnt necessarily indicate actual racism. I’d just add a foreword that stereotypes like that arent proper for use today. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/25 "2021-03-02T17:39:44Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > _The Cat’s Quizzer_ is one of my favorites. I wonder what the offending part is. “Do the Japanese eat with pogo sticks or joss sticks?” ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/26 "2021-03-02T17:55:57Z")
That was horrible back when it first came out in theaters. It was a jarring caricature in an otherwise charming film. My high school senior class even chose “Moon River” for it’s class song. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/27 "2021-03-02T17:58:57Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Isn’t an element of the discussion of racism today that we are supposed to examine and discuss conditions existing in the recent and remote past? As opposed to simply sweeping it under the rug? …while reading a book intended for preschoolers? Seems like a lot to ask of the little tykes right before bedtime. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/28 "2021-03-02T18:05:14Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@CalMeacham](#): > > > > He’s dressed in those traditional raised shoes > > Geta. Which are _Japanese_, not Chinese. Which just adds to the overall racism of it all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/29 "2021-03-02T18:07:51Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > _If I Ran The Zoo_ is pretty horrific, both in terms of pictures and text. There were certain pages I tended to skip when reading to my daughter in her earlier years. [This article’s got a picture from it](https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-dr-seuss-books-will-no-longer-be-published-over-racist-images/). It’s pretty bad. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/30 "2021-03-02T18:16:40Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > …while reading a book intended for preschoolers? Seems like a lot to ask of the little tykes right before bedtime. Yeah - I guess you are correct. It is too much to expect of those preschoolers when they go into the library or store on their own to pick out their reading material. Oh - if only there were someone involved - almost like a responsible adult - who might actually be able to decide whether or not a particular book was appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/31 "2021-03-02T18:24:38Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Yeah - I guess you are correct. It is too much to expect of those preschoolers when they go into the library or store on their own to pick out their reading material. > > Oh - if only there were someone involved - almost like a responsible adult - who might actually be able to decide whether or not a particular book was appropriate. In a lot of cases, that would be a librarian or day care provider or some other responsible adult non-parent who is going to be picking uncontroversial material as much as possible, which means the commercial market for this stuff is going to be limited. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/32 "2021-03-02T18:35:51Z")
Has me thinking - I bet so much of the books we used to own/read as a kid wouldn’t pass current muster. Which is a good thing! It may be unrealistic of me, but I can see it as worthwhile to inform younger generations how recently intolerance was widely accepted, instead of just making them disappear. Off the top of my head, I’m thinking of[Ping the Diving Duck](https://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/ping.pdf), [Nicodemus and His New Soes](https://www.thelibrarium.com/product/323/Nicodemus-and-His-New-Shoes-Hogan-Inez), of course Little Black Sambo … Really is amazing to look back at what was widely accepted just 50 years ago! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/33 "2021-03-02T18:38:17Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Oh - if only there were someone involved - almost like a responsible adult - who might actually be able to decide whether or not a particular book was appropriate. I’m sure there are plenty of racist adults that would be happy to emphasize the racist imagery. I was replying to your statement that we’re supposed to examine and discuss existing conditions in the recent and remote past, as opposed to sweeping it under a rug. I think that’s completely fine at middle school level and above, and some discussion is probably fine at elementary school levels. But, I don’t know that a Dr. Seuss book is really the right medium to have that conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/34 "2021-03-02T18:40:44Z")
No he wants that so then he can turn around and whine about kids getting indoctrinated early. They’ll always find a way to be the “real victims” in these situations. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/35 "2021-03-02T18:51:25Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Off the top of my head, I’m thinking of[Ping the Diving Duck](https://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/ping.pdf), I don’t see that one as particularly racist. The Chinese people aren’t cartoon versions of Chinese. And as recently as 2007 it was [considered one of the 100 best books for children](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_About_Ping). Apparently the fact that Ping receives a spanking is the most controversial thing about it. [Five Chinese Brothers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Chinese_Brothers) might be more of a problem, but even that one is not really racist. > [@](#): > > [Nicodemus and His New Soes](https://www.thelibrarium.com/product/323/Nicodemus-and-His-New-Shoes-Hogan-Inez), of course Little Black Sambo … Those I’ll grant you. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/36 "2021-03-02T19:12:40Z")
Not sure what your experience is, but in mine, it would be a pretty precocious preschooler who was able to read Dr. Seuss on his/her own. So I imagine a parent would be involved somehow. In my limited sample size of my 5.5 year old daughter - she’s not really a fan of Dr. Seuss, as she prefers more realistic drawings. And the wordplay does not really work well for a kindergartner. She can appreciate somewhat compex stories, but not Dr. Seuss nonsense. I do not perceive her as significantly developmentally delayed. I’m not saying people HAVE to have these discussions w/ their kids at any age. But if they want to, it could be helpful to have the books available. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/37 "2021-03-02T19:29:22Z")
Little Black Sambo always confused me somewhat. The characters in the version we had were clearly drawn as Indian (tigers - duh!) Sambo was smarter than the tigers and, other than the named Mumbo and Jumbo, I did not perceive the mother and father as portrayed negatively. And, of course, there was the restaurant. It was not until I was much older that I heard African Americans referred to as Sambos. Curious - because in Chicago in the 60s, this Polack was privy to just about every racial/ethnic slur imaginable! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/38 "2021-03-02T20:01:20Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Little Black Sambo always confused me somewhat. The characters in the version we had were clearly drawn as Indian (tigers - duh!) Sambo was smarter than the tigers and, other than the named Mumbo and Jumbo, I did not perceive the mother and father as portrayed negatively. Aside from the names, the story is not at all racist. Helen Bannerman, the author, was a British expat living in India who made the story up for her daughters. The setting, with tigers, ghee, and a bazaar, is clearly Indian. Of course, Indians, especially South Indians, are “black” to an English expat. However, the illustrations of the first editions, and most later editions, show stereotypical Black people rather than Indians, often dressed like Blacks in the southern US. Later editions in more sensitive times began switching to more appropriate Indian people. The last Sambo’s restaurant I saw also showed Sambo and his parents as Indian. In 2003 Christopher Bing produced [an edition with more racially sensitive illustrations.](http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/i/msnbc/Components/Photos/040113/040113_sambo_bcol_902a.jpg), buy critics still found the names a problem. Modern editions change the names to Indian ones, and use the Indian setting. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/39 "2021-03-02T20:14:14Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Tom Sawyer / Huck Finn [. . .] where they can understand the difference between “this is the way it was” and now, and maybe even learn why “the way it was” was wrong. Another significant difference is that Twain was also saying that “the way it was” was wrong. Huck Finn in particular is a vehemently anti-racist book; though it does indeed need the explanatory notes, because it certainly uses very racist language to say that. > [@slash2k](#): > > I don’t know how you’d write a framing statement at the age level congruent with the text of the book itself. This. The books are still in effect available to adults; there must be a ton of copies in existence already. I’d be opposed to any attempt to start burning them all; but for them to stop publishing, and for libraries to pull them from the childrens’ shelves, both seem to me to be reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/40 "2021-03-02T20:26:00Z")
_Scrambled Eggs Super!_ was a favorite of mine as a kid. I’m having trouble finding info on the specific stuff in it that’s the problem. Whatever racial stereotypes I’ve since forgotten about, the book should probably be discontinued for **environmental** reasons. The kid travels the world taking eggs from the nests of rare, wild birds just to eat. Not a good lesson. (And never mind the likelihood of ending up with balut instead of scrambled eggs. 🤮) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113.md?page=3)