# And to Think I can't See it on Mulberry Street -- Six Seuss Books retired for racism **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [March 2, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113 "2021-03-02T14:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/81 "2021-03-03T00:20:58Z")
> [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](#): > > If this gets “Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire” banned, I’m all for it. Chestnuts roasting on an open fire Jack Frost nipping at your nose Yuletide carols being sung by a choir And folks dressed up like Arctic Aboriginals… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/82 "2021-03-03T01:22:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > > [@What\_Exit](#): > > > > …I don’t think a message works too well for books aimed at beginner readers. > > For Huckleberry Finn that is a great idea. For _To think I Saw it on Mulberry Street_, I don’t think it works as well. > > The responsibility falls, as it often must, on the parents who will likely be reading to the child. Eventually, when the child is old enough, he or she will see the framing info and be able to look into it further, if interested. Exactly. Like how I used to love Miss Mary Jane on _Romper Room_ when I was four, and my parents didn’t tell me about her past as a fan dancer until I was thirty. Okay none of that happened. But if she _had_ been a fan dancer, waiting until I was an adult to let me find out would have been the right move. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/83 "2021-03-03T01:37:59Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > It seems we’ve decided that racial stereotypes are necessarily racist, even if there was no ill intent The vast majority of racism that pervades our society and harms people isn’t specifically intended. Requiring a finding of intent is such a big loophole that it basically sanctions racism. > [@Powers](#): > > or negative trait being depicted Have you seen the grotesque caricatures of Chinese and African people in those Seuss books? Those aren’t negative? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/84 "2021-03-03T01:41:33Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > (My thought about the illustrations in Dickens was “There are illustrations in Dickens?”) [There are.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hablot_Knight_Browne#Career) In fact, his first novel, [The Pickwick Papers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pickwick_Papers), was originally supposed to be a bunch of text descriptions to go along with an artist’s series of "“cockney sporting plates.” (Which in no way invalidates your main point.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/85 "2021-03-03T02:09:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Have you seen the grotesque caricatures of Chinese and African people in those Seuss books? Those aren’t negative? Everything in Dr. Seuss is grotesque. Take, for example, this [Russian.](https://seuss.fandom.com/wiki/Russian_Palooski?file=Image-27.jpg) The caricatures of Asian people are exaggerated but I don’t think they are intended to demean, but rather identify where they are from. (I’ll grant that the ones of Africans are a bit much.) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/86 "2021-03-03T03:16:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > ll grant that the ones of Africans are a bit much. Even that isn’t too different from his usual style. [This](https://www.denofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/dr-seuss-detail-final.jpg) is Seuss racist. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/87 "2021-03-03T03:25:26Z")
Yes, that one’s the worst I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/88 "2021-03-03T03:43:37Z")
Seuss had a long history of racist cartoons. During WWII , he drew nasty cartoons about Japanese Americans. As white boomers’ stranglehold on our culture finally starts to loosen, a lot of things that they never thought to question are now being challenged. This is a good thing. Hearing from more voices means hearing some unpleasant truths. > **[The Dr. Seuss Museum and His Wartime Cartoons about Japan and Japanese Americans](https://apjjf.org/2017/16/Minear.html)** > > Abstract: This two-part article reconsiders the legacy of Dr. Seuss as presented in the new Dr. Seuss Museum in Springfield, against the author’s little known wartime cartoon representations of the ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/89 "2021-03-03T03:49:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is still a copyright on those books. > > No one gets to print those books now. Well, yeah. _That’s how it works._ Like they said: > [@Procrustus](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > A publisher won’t necessarily sell the rights to an out-of-print book; they may cease publishing it but still retain the copyright. > > … > If Dr. Seuss was still alive, and said, “I’m embarrassed by a few of these books and would like to stop selling them” would anyone see a problem? Exactly. Under the law the titleholding estate has the same prerogatives as the author for these purposes. I know, I know, some people do disagree with the concept of the creator being able to choose to restrict if, when and how their creation is published/performed after having released it, up to and including to withdraw it from print. But right now the law is on the side of the titleholder to the rights, until the defined time period runs out. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/90 "2021-03-03T03:56:42Z")
The NY Times wrote that he said he was indeed embarrassed by the cartoons he drew for newspapers in the early 1940’s. It also said that in the early’ 70’s, editions of _And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street_ were published with “a Chinaman” changed to “a Chinese man”. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/91 "2021-03-03T05:14:42Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > some people do disagree with the concept of the creator being able to choose to restrict if, when and how their creation is published/performed after having released it Well, they disagree if it’s being done for the wrong reasons. Anti-racism and such. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/92 "2021-03-03T08:10:49Z")
The actual _Romper Room_ controversy with [Miss Sherri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherri_Chessen) was also probably something best left for adulthood. Or at least, teenhood. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/93 "2021-03-03T09:23:40Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Chestnuts roasting on an open fire > Jack Frost nipping at your nose > Yuletide carols being sung by a choir > And folks dressed up like Arctic Aboriginals… _Chestnuts roasting on an open fire_ _Jack Frost nipping at your tits_ _Yuletide carols being sung by a choir_ _And folks dressed up like Inuits._ There - now no one can object to that… ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/94 "2021-03-03T09:35:35Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > The NY Times wrote that he said he was indeed embarrassed by the cartoons he drew for newspapers in the early 1940’s. Interesting note: Seuss himself made this cartoon on the topic. [![](https://preview.redd.it/o5s0jm535fby.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=0417b0e9d22f7930a03fa54bc8308c34d5f85a32) ](https://preview.redd.it/o5s0jm535fby.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=0417b0e9d22f7930a03fa54bc8308c34d5f85a32) At face value, it appears to be something of a course correction, or an apology, or something like that. But the creation date for the cartoon is 1942, when Seuss was also busily engaged in creating propagandistic material in support of the war effort against Japan, which included seriously grotesque racist caricatures. And when you really think about the message of the cartoon, it suggests that the man being treated is essentially innocent, that he was unaware of his bigotry until it was removed and presented to him. Rather than Seuss accepting responsibility that what he believed and did was wrong, it seems defensive, like he’s trying to let himself off the hook. Rather than apology, it comes off as apologia. The ways people wrestle with their learned and innate biases are complicated and nuanced and very, very gray. There’s no simple answer. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/95 "2021-03-03T12:44:29Z")
This topic seems to have really hit a nerve. My thoughts: 1.) Times have definitely changed. One of the books being withdrawn is from 1937, and at that point “a Chinaman who eats with sticks” was seen as simply an interesting addition to the parade. At least they got the costume so correct that the item I cite in the OP could name the clothing items (and the Chinese also had raised-sole wooden shoes, even if they didn’t call them “geta”). At least they didn’t give him a queue. He’s there because Seuss wanted to make his parade increasingly exotic. That said, it’s definitely not PC today because it’s based on old stereotypes about how people are pigeonholed by old ideas about how they’re odd and different. The almost-simplest way would have been to remove the drawing from the overall picture and rewrite the verse referring to him, but it’s simpler still to withdraw publication. 1. During the second world war, lots of insulting caricatures of Germans and Italians showed up, as well. They were, after all, the “bad guys”, and people didn’t have qualms about dehumanizing them. Times have changed this way, too – there’s less appetite for doing that today, I think, but that’s a discussion for another time. My point is that the Japanese weren’t the only ones given that treatment People aren’t fond of these today. Disney doesn’t re-release the Donald Duck cartoon “Der Fuhrer’s Face” anymore. Warner Brothers wartime cartoons are among their banned list. I once saw a documentary on wartime cartoons that didn’t actually show any cartoons. 2. Look for a lot more of this sort of thing in the future. Cartoonists actively look for different and interesting things to draw, for obvious reasons. That invariably lead to “exotic” foreign lands and people in foreign garb. A lot of that is going to be seen as culturally insensitive and racially stereotyping. And a lot of it is, but a lot arguably is not. And when you start to separate the two, you’ll have controversies. I’ve already seen complaints about the depictions in Carl Barks’ Uncle Scrooge and Donald Duck comics, most of which I think are unjustified. On the other hand, I’m amazed at what they got away with in DC comics in the 1960s and early 1970s. Again, a topic for another time. 3. Fox news is taking Biden to task for not mentioning Dr. Seuss at yesterday’s Read Across America Day – [Fox News asks Jen Psaki about President Biden's outrageous disregard for Dr. Seuss](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/3/2/2018997/-Fox-News-asks-Jen-Psaki-about-President-Biden-s-outrageous-disregard-for-Dr-Seuss?pm_source=story_sidebar&pm_medium=web&pm_campaign=recommended) ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/96 "2021-03-03T13:31:23Z")
Librarian here. If I Ran the Zoo is the only book I’ve withdrawn in a 30 year career, and this happened years ago. I discussed the book with a group of 5th and 6th graders as an example of a book that was considered “ok” at the time it was published, but not in the present. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/97 "2021-03-03T14:23:20Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > That invariably lead to “exotic” foreign lands and people in foreign garb. A lot of that is going to be seen as culturally insensitive and racially stereotyping. The very concept of “exotic” is non-Woke now. [https://www.thelamron.com/posts/2018/11/8/exotic-is-offensive-wrongly-objectifies-non-white-people](https://www.thelamron.com/posts/2018/11/8/exotic-is-offensive-wrongly-objectifies-non-white-people) > **[A Witch-Hunt on Instagram](https://quillette.com/2019/02/17/a-witch-hunt-on-instagram/)** > > Knitting, which helps lower the blood pressure and keep the mind busy, has enjoyed an upsurge in popularity in recent years. (As an aside back to Japanese shoes, take a look on Google Images at “tengu geta.”) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/98 "2021-03-03T15:14:23Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > The very concept of “exotic” is non-Woke now. Sorry – I disagree wit this on many counts. That paper is using it in a different sense than the way it is normally used. “Exotic” means “different from here”. If nothing is exotic, then everything is the same. It’s an ideal to treat people the same everywhere, not favoring anyone or discriminating against them. But to not recognize that places are different, with different practices, feels, flavors, etc. is absurd, and denies reality. If nothing is exotic there is no need for travel or for trade. “Exotic” is always in reference to wherever you are. Boston is exotic to someone in Europe, just as Japan in exotic to someone in Boston. To call something “exotic” is not to declare Western society the norm. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/99 "2021-03-03T15:17:03Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Exactly. Under the law the titleholding estate has the same prerogatives as the author for these purposes. Any thoughts as to why the current folk decided the offending material could not be edited out? Would strike me as not terribly challenging to either delete the words/pictures, or to commission new, inoffensive substitutes. Doing so would allow the books to continue to be published, earning $ for the owners. Could be accompanied by a forward/notation/etc. informing folk that some aspects of the book had been changed. Purists could avoid them. Or is the thought that one currently offensive image taints the entire book? If so, why not consider his entire ouvre tainted? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113/100 "2021-03-03T15:30:00Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Yes. Presumably a responsible adult will either decide to not choose THAT book, or will explain to their kid that this picture is inappropriate. The real world doesn’t work that way, sorry. I’m Chinese American. Thinking back on these books brings back memories of a confused childhood where books introduced in school created weird lessons to me about what Chinese meant. Of course now I know it was all bullshit, but as a child these books presented depictions of what it meant to be Chinese to me, which was a confusing mess. What is worse, is they presented what it means to be Chinese to my classmates which wasn’t great for me either. And don’t get me started on movies. While my parents’ English skills are excellent, not every Asian-American’s parent is fluent in English. Also, I was introduced to these books in school by teachers, white teachers who don’t know better. > [@Colibri](#): > > The caricatures of Asian people are exaggerated but I don’t think they are intended to demean, but rather identify where they are from. (I’ll grant that the ones of Africans are a bit much.) I also feel that racism towards Asians gets a pass where racism towards other races is taken more seriously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-to-think-i-cant-see-it-on-mulberry-street-six-seuss-books-retired-for-racism/934113.md?page=6)