# And yet ANOTHER Ebay pet peeve **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639 "2005-01-25T20:52:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/41 "2005-01-31T14:51:53Z")
> [@gatopescado](#): > > Exactly what I meant to say if I wasn’t an, or “a” moron. 😉 > > It works, its good and it makes money for ebay and the seller and “saves” money for low-bid buyers. Well, that’s somewhat interesting, and i’ll tell you the direct effect it has on me. . .I’m just done really putting out “what I’m willing to pay.” And I don’t know if you’ll ever “reap what you have sown” but if people are smart (which they aren’t), its going to drive down bids in the long run. As has been said before, if I make a bid at Ebay, that’s the MAXIMUM amount I’m willing to pay BUT, I’m also putting that bid out there with a reasonable expectation that I can get the item at a lower price. Sellers who shill and do what **Holmes** described have removed my expectation that I’ll ever get anything at lower than my maximum price. And, **Holmes** is completely wrong when he says, “Shill bidding for second chance is a waste of time, because your bid isn’t binding”. He’s wrong because shill bidding doesn’t really take any time (or money) AND by doing so, he’s altering the game so that he’s able to see what every bidder’s maximum bid is and then offer “second chance” items all the way down the bidding list, until he finds a price that’s not profitable to him anymore. If it’s not illegal, or even unethical, it’s certainy shady. I’m getting fucking sick of that shit, and I’ll be surprised if there isn’t some sort of backlash someday. You all can fool me a couple times, but I’m done putting out real bids on items until I think this crap is cleared up. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/42 "2005-01-31T16:47:48Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Sellers who shill and do what **Holmes** described have removed my expectation that I’ll ever get anything at lower than my maximum price. > > And, **Holmes** is completely wrong when he says, “Shill bidding for second chance is a waste of time, because your bid isn’t binding”. He’s wrong because shill bidding doesn’t really take any time (or money) AND by doing so, he’s altering the game so that he’s able to see what every bidder’s maximum bid is and then offer “second chance” items all the way down the bidding list, until he finds a price that’s not profitable to him anymore. > > If it’s not illegal, or even unethical, it’s certainy shady. > > I’m getting fucking sick of that shit, and I’ll be surprised if there isn’t some sort of backlash someday. You all can fool me a couple times, but I’m done putting out real bids on items until I think this crap is cleared up. Illegal, unethical, shady? Christ in handcart, are you being forced to accept a second chance offer? You don’t like the deal, don’t take it. Period. How hard is that? Turn off the option in your prefs or become a better buyer. As far as using the second chance as a shill, I still have to risk that a certain percentage of people don’t accept the second chance; it makes more sense IMO, to shill for “real” auctions; that the bidder is “required” to pay, than spend time shilling and making an offer that no one is required to accept and sometimes they don’t. If I offer you a second chance offer and you take it, that’s your decision. YOURS. You decided that the item was worth $20, when the item went pass that, you bowed out. Fine. Now you have a **choice** you can pay your $20, or wait to see if the relist comes…which i promise you will be what the average bid was and it won’t be $20.00. Even without the second chance option, if i saw that an item that I listed at $15.00, ended at $40, with 50% of the bids over $25.00, I would of course start my new list price at $25.00. You still lose. The reason I don’t, is because I want to strike while the iron is still hot. I may lose a few dollars in selling it to you at $20, but at least i have that money in my hand, as opposed to risking, a. another seller noticed my auction and is going to undercut me, b. It’s a bad week or c. I have a non-paying bidders and d. eBay fees. As far as seeing your max, so what? Everyone that bid on the auction can see what you maxed out at and most any other eBay auction as well. Good researchers, actually look at the how people bid on similar items and gauge what the market will bear. Unethical? I noticed the demand and purchased more items…I’m to be penalized profit, by having to pay eBay **more** listing fees? I have to risk **more** non-paying bidders? When I have a list of people already interested in my product, at the click of a button? I have another item and I offer one do you at your last bid, which was what you **would have** paid had you not been outbid. That’s unfair to you how? Why should I let you have this item at less than what you were willing to pay for it? How much discount should I give you? What about the guy to bowed out a $21.58, how much does he get? Or to be fair do I have to offer to you at your first bid, what about the guy who bid at $39.98? Who gets first crack and why should I reduce my profit margin? Now I KNOW what the item was worth and so do you. Paying $20, for an item that you were outbid for by $20, is a pretty good deal…but you DON’T have to take it. You can wait for the relist…which of course we never come, because I have 20 other bidders; 10 of which already outbid you, and will most likely do so again. Shady? I call Bullshite. If I had to offer the second chance options at the LOWEST bids, I doubt you would be complaining. If you don’t know what an item is worth, and bid according…how’s that my fault? You have complete control in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/43 "2005-01-31T18:57:34Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > Well, that’s somewhat interesting, and i’ll tell you the direct effect it has on me. . .I’m just done really putting out “what I’m willing to pay.” And I don’t know if you’ll ever “reap what you have sown” but if people are smart (which they aren’t), its going to drive down bids in the long run. > > As has been said before, if I make a bid at Ebay, that’s the MAXIMUM amount I’m willing to pay BUT, I’m also putting that bid out there with a reasonable expectation that I can get the item at a lower price. Exactly. You maximum amount isn’t _supposed_ to be revealed to anyone. When someone discovers your maximum amount, and offers you a sale based on that knowledge, they’re really circumventing the original intent of the Ebay process. I liken it to going to a live auction, and having $100 in your wallet. You know that $100 is the most you are going to spend, but nobody else knows that. But imagine that someone picked your pocket, looked inside your wallet, slipped it back into your pocket, then said, “I’ll sell you this item for $100, because I know you’re willing to pay that much.” Well, you _were_ willing to pay that much, but you didn’t want _the seller_ to know that. Of course it’s not directly analagous, because picking pockets is illegal, but I think it illustrates the point. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/44 "2005-01-31T19:08:26Z")
Holmes, it’s unethical because you are deliberately hiding the fact that you have multiple items for sale. If I understand you correctly, you’re trying to sell a _different_, albeit identical, item to people under the false pretense that there is only one item and that the winner backed out. Actually, I’m surprised Ebay even allows this. > [@](#): > > I win because I don’t have to deal with relisting and tipping my hand that I have another 10 and i don’t have to pay listing fees That says it all. You don’t want to “tip your hand”. That implies that you are concealing something. Why are you concealing it? To make more money, right? You’re also benefitting from Ebay’s services without paying Ebay what they are due. If that’s not unethical, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/45 "2005-01-31T19:55:26Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Holmes, it’s unethical because you are deliberately hiding the fact that you have multiple items for sale. If I understand you correctly, you’re trying to sell a _different_, albeit identical, item to people under the false pretense that there is only one item and that the winner backed out. Actually, I’m surprised Ebay even allows this. Oh for goodness sake, you have no idea what you’re talking about and no you’re not understanding me correctly. I don’t HAVE to pretend that a bidder backed out, the same reason I don’t need to shill. The system is set-up to allow sellers the ability to “contact” losing bidders in the case that either they’ve been stiffed OR have additional items. > [@blowero](#): > > That says it all. You don’t want to “tip your hand”. That implies that you are concealing something. Why are you concealing it? To make more money, right? You’re also benefitting from Ebay’s services without paying Ebay what they are due. If that’s not unethical, I don’t know what is. If you’re going to quote me, then please try to keep the context and content,please… > [@Holmes](#): > > I use the second option all the time, as a method of maximizing my profits with a minimum of work. I have an item that I think will be a big seller, but I’m not sure how much, so I only list the one as a teaser. Turns out I’m right, in fact the item that I listed at $15.00, ends at $40, with 20 different bidders. It’s win-win. > > What do I do? I contact all the second chancers and offer them the item at their max which is still less than the final bid was. If you’re the guy that bid at $20, you’re getting a bargin. I win because I don’t have to deal with relisting and tipping my hand that I have another 10 and i don’t have to pay listing fees, just the final value AND I have people who have a vested interest in my product. What I’ve said is that I use the second chance option to avoid the cost and extra problems involving in relisting an extra item or 10, ONCE I realize I have a good thing. Why would I watch a bidding war, and then suddenly list another 10 items…that’s really good business sense and yeah I’m looking to make as much money as I can…sorry, **comrade**. Secondly, I don’t owe you crap. I don’t have to give you a bargin or tell you if I have 1 or 100. You are in complete control of whether or not to accept my offer. You. Not me, not eBay, not the Nanny government. You. Why should I list every item I have? So you can pay the least amount? What welfare state are you living in? What if I did list all 10 and only you brought one? I still have to pay eBay for 9 failed listings, as opposed to the one. Are you going to refund me the fees for the 9 that failed? Can charge you a little extra… > [@](#): > > A seller can make a Second Chance Offer to a bidder other than the auction’s winner when: > > ``` > * The winning bidder in an auction fails to buy the item > * Reserve Price Auctions that don't meet the reserve price > > ``` > > \*\* \* The seller has duplicate items for sale but hasn’t chosen to run a Multiple Item Auction\*\* > > What is a Second Chance Offer > Second Chance Offers can be sent to any of the non-winning bidders if the winning bidder does not pay the seller, if a seller has duplicate items, or the reserve price is not met in a Reserve Price Auction. Second Chance Offers can be created immediately after a listing ends for up to 60 days. > > If sending due to an Unpaid Item, sellers should be sure that everything has been done to resolve the issue with the original buyer before sending a Second Chance Offer. > > Note: Second Chance Offers contain a Buy It Now price equal to the non-winning bidder’s bid amount. > > Why should a seller send a Second Chance Offer? > **The Second Chance Offer feature allows sellers to offer duplicate items to their non-winning bidders, while at the same time selling their item to the winning bidder.** In Reserve Not Met cases, a Seller may choose to sell the item to a non-winning bidder. Lastly, a seller might make a Second Chance Offer if their auction’s winning bidder didn’t pay for the item. Please note, however, that it’s not possible to make Second Chance Offers in a Multiple Item Auction (Dutch Auction). > > Best of all, creating a Second Chance Offer is FREE. \*\* Sellers pay only the Final Value Fee when the offer is accepted. And, for Reserve Price Auctions that do not meet the reserve price, the Reserve Price Insertion Fee will be automatically credited when the offer is accepted.\*\* So where I am using eBay’s services without paying them their due? It looks like they’re getting paid to me and in fact I know they do, as I’m the one paying the fees. [Second Chance](http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/second_chance_offer.html#Why) ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/46 "2005-01-31T20:11:49Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Exactly. You maximum amount isn’t _supposed_ to be revealed to anyone. When someone discovers your maximum amount, and offers you a sale based on that knowledge, they’re really circumventing the original intent of the Ebay process. > > I liken it to going to a live auction, and having $100 in your wallet. You know that $100 is the most you are going to spend, but nobody else knows that. But imagine that someone picked your pocket, looked inside your wallet, slipped it back into your pocket, then said, “I’ll sell you this item for $100, because I know you’re willing to pay that much.” Well, you _were_ willing to pay that much, but you didn’t want _the seller_ to know that. Of course it’s not directly analagous, because picking pockets is illegal, but I think it illustrates the point. There are very few secrets on eBay, the maximum bid is only hidden until the auction ends. Period. Once a typcial eBay auction ends, I can click at the bids link and see a list of EVERYONE who bid and what they maxed out at. If you were outbid at $20.00 and Mr. Smith won at $21.50, I have a pretty good idea what your max was. Once you bid your max, it’s avialable for the world to see, not different than you bidding at a live auction. If at a live auction, you bid $200 and Mr. Smith bids $250 and you say no, I KNOW that your max was $200. I was there, I saw you blink. You aren’t hidding anything. I don’t **have** to look at your wallet, as you’ve already let everyone know how much you had once you placed your bid and lost. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/47 "2005-01-31T21:45:18Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > There are very few secrets on eBay, the maximum bid is only hidden until the auction ends. Period. False. > [@](#): > > Once a typcial eBay auction ends, I can click at the bids link and see a list of EVERYONE who bid and what they maxed out at. If you were outbid at $20.00 and Mr. Smith won at $21.50, I have a pretty good idea what your max was. Once you bid your max, it’s avialable for the world to see, not different than you bidding at a live auction. We covered this already. It’s only revealed _if_ you were outbid. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/48 "2005-01-31T21:48:25Z")
O.K., holmes - I see your point on the other thing. What you’re doing looks like it’s in line with Ebay’s policies, so I guess I overstated my case. I still don’t like Ebay’s policies, though. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/49 "2005-01-31T21:50:40Z")
Oh, but I didn’t misquote you, so you need to chill the fuck out on that.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/50 "2005-01-31T23:24:12Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > False. > > We covered this already. It’s only revealed _if_ you were outbid. What are you talking about? Once a regular auction ends the bid history is revealed, to everyone. Do a search for ANY regular completed auction and you can see what the bid history of that auction was…EVERYONE’s maximum is clearly listed. I don’t have to participate in an auction to see what the bid history is. I didn’t say you misquoted me, I said you took my statement out of context and content. So stupid, childish icon right back at you. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/51 "2005-01-31T23:46:35Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > What are you talking about? Once a regular auction ends the bid history is revealed, to everyone. > > Do a search for ANY regular completed auction and you can see what the bid history of that auction was…EVERYONE’s maximum is clearly listed. I don’t have to participate in an auction to see what the bid history is. Everyone **except** the ultimate winner. His maximum is still hidden, and the amount shown as his highest bid is the highest bid of the second-placed bidder, plus the minimum bid increment. Except in the rare circumstances where this is equal to his maximum, no-one except him will ever know the highest price he was willing to pay. For example, I was bidding on a camera. I put in a maximum of £60. The price I ended up paying was around £40, since that was just above the highest bid of anyone else. The amount shown as my final bid in the history was £40. Don’t believe me? Test it out. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/52 "2005-02-01T19:06:07Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > What are you talking about? Once a regular auction ends the bid history is revealed, to everyone. > > Do a search for ANY regular completed auction and you can see what the bid history of that auction was…EVERYONE’s maximum is clearly listed. I don’t have to participate in an auction to see what the bid history is. Excuse me, but you are absolutely wrong. Go back, read my previous post on the subject, then slap yourself on the head and say, “Gee holmes, you’re an idiot”. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say you misquoted me, I said you took my statement out of context and content. So stupid, childish icon right back at you. I did not. Kindly tell us what _content_ you believe was changed, and/or what _context_ you believe I left out that changes the meaning of what I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639/53 "2005-02-01T19:07:09Z")
Actually, you don’t even have to go back to my previous post. Dead Badger just explained it _again_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-yet-another-ebay-pet-peeve/286639.md?page=2)