# Andrea Dworkin has died. How do we feel about that? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983 "2005-04-12T16:07:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/61 "2005-04-14T07:31:49Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > I get the impression that she and her ilk were the reason many women were and are “ashamed to proclaim themselves as feminist”, for fear of being identified as misandrist lesbians with bad hygiene and a persecution complex. Oh. Come. On. The people responsible for that stereotype are the conservative anti-feminist losers who could rarely think of a coherent argument against feminism, but were (and are) gifted at taking cheap shots. I went into a political chat room once and was called a “hairy-legged birkenstock-wearing lesbian” for saying I supported Gore in 2000. You’re going to blame Andrea Dworkin’s sexual orientation and weight problem for idiocy on that scale? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/62 "2005-04-14T08:45:57Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Oh. Come. On. The people responsible for that stereotype are the conservative anti-feminist losers who could rarely think of a coherent argument against feminism, but were (and are) gifted at taking cheap shots. “Oh. Come. On. The people responsible for that stereotype are {the following set of stereotypical people}”. Anyone got a 3 amp fuse? My irony meter just blew. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/63 "2005-04-14T12:53:06Z")
[QUOTE=uglybeech] Oh that’s Andrea Dworkin’s fault? I thought it was because they were cowardly and ignorant. [/QUOTE > [@uglybeech](#): > > Oh. Come. On. The people responsible for that stereotype are the conservative anti-feminist losers who could rarely think of a coherent argument against feminism, but were (and are) gifted at taking cheap shots. Wow. Just…wow. Cognitive dissonance at its best, plus a couple of your own cheap shots. You sure know how to pack 'em in, don’t you? “There’s some lovely filth over here…Help, I’m being oppressed! See the violence inherent in the system!” :rolleyes: Stranger ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/64 "2005-04-14T13:22:27Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > “Oh. Come. On. The people responsible for that stereotype are {the following set of stereotypical people}”. > > Anyone got a 3 amp fuse? My irony meter just blew. :dubious: I’d recalibrate. Or look up what a stereotype is. Actual people are not stereotypes and “stereotypical people” is pretty much an oxymoron. I’m referring to the _subset of people_ who actually do paint feminists as a group as manhating lesbians. Anyone who does that is (by definition IMHO) a conservative anti-feminist loser who can’t think of a coherent argument. Again, that’s an _insult_, not a stereotype, because I’m not directing it towards a larger group. I gave an example of at least one idiot who painted \*all female democrats \* as hairy-legged birkenstock-wearing lesbians. This idiot was not a “stereotypical person.” He was a person (sort of). And I hold him and people who do what he does responsible for the manhating lesbian stereotype of feminists. If I painted all conservatives as fat drug addicts because Rush Limbaugh is one _that_ would be a stereotype. If I then turned around and blamed Rush Limbaugh for perpetuating that stereotype that would be ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/65 "2005-04-14T14:44:58Z")
Nope, my irony meter is working just fine. I’ve just added an “uglybeech” mark to the scale. In practical terms I think it’ll be like the farad is in electronics; best used in milli-, micro- and nano-units. **Stranger On A Train** observed that, thanks to Dworkin and her like, feminism came to be equated with a particularly (unrepresentative but vociferous and widely-heard) ugly brand of man-hating, and yet apparently no-one ever actually thought this except a bunch of people economically painted with your broad brush. If you truly don’t think you’re stereotyping when you accuse the stereotypers, good luck to you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/66 "2005-04-14T15:13:21Z")
Well, I read about the first four or five pages of _Right-Wing Women_ (I think that’s the title), before concluding that no, it wasn’t going to get better, that the author WAS a misandronist. That ain’t a flavor of feminism I got any patience for, any more than I got any patience for black activists who hate the blue-eyed devil. Whether she was lesbian was, and is, none of my concern: there’s plenty of lesbians who aren’t misandronists. I do think that there’s a strain of misandronistic feminism out there, and that it’s disproportionately prevalent on college campuses, where people who are just getting introduced to intellectual theories often don’t appreciate complexity and contradiction. And I do think that many people who get introduced to feminist theory via the Dworkin/Daly school wrongly conclude that all feminists are like that (again, no appreciation for complexity), and decide to distance themselves from all feminism as a result. I’m sure Dworkin had her place, and it may be that despite her contemptible attitude toward men she did some real good. But I don’t think it’s a mischaracterization to say that she’s a manhater, or to say that her school of feminism made many people not want to call themselves feminist. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/67 "2005-04-14T16:17:44Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > **Stranger On A Train** observed that, thanks to Dworkin and her like, feminism came to be equated with a particularly (unrepresentative but vociferous and widely-heard) ugly brand of man-hating, Stranger \*posited \* that this was thanks to Dworkin. Which I think is completely wrong-headed. It’s as if I called all conservatives fat loud-mouthed drug addicts because Rush Limbaugh is one and then turned around and blamed Limbaugh for the stereotype I’ve created of conservatives. _I_ would be responsible for the stereotype. NOT Limbaugh. Plus it would be a cheap shot on a number of levels (picking on his weight, addiction and speaking style rather than on substance). > [@](#): > > and yet apparently no-one ever actually thought this except a bunch of people economically painted with your broad brush. Can you rephrase for clarity? > [@](#): > > If you truly don’t think you’re stereotyping when you accuse the stereotypers, good luck to you. No, I’m not. I’m insulting them. There is a difference between an insult and a stereotype. To clarify: - an insult would be calling Rush Limbaugh a fat loud-mouthed drug addict. It’s fair even if mean. Because it’s insulting a specific person for specific things he has done. - a cheap shot would be responding to Rush Limbaugh’s \*arguments \* by calling him a fat loud-mouthed drug addict. because it has nothing to do with the substance. - a stereotype would be identifying conservatives with fat loud-mouthed drug addict because one of them happened to be one (it would also be a cheap shot) There are certainly plenty of liberals who do DO this sort of stereotyping - but they’re “liberal losers who can’t formulate a coherent argument and are gifted at making cheap shots.” Again - an insult, not a stereotype because I’m referring to specific people who do specific things and insulting them for doing that thing. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/68 "2005-04-14T16:20:57Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > > [@uglybeech](#): > > > > Oh that’s Andrea Dworkin’s fault? I thought it was because they were cowardly and ignorant. > > > > Oh. Come. On. The people responsible for that stereotype are the conservative anti-feminist losers who could rarely think of a coherent argument against feminism, but were (and are) gifted at taking cheap shots. > > Wow. Just…wow. Cognitive dissonance at its best, plus a couple of your own cheap shots. You sure know how to pack 'em in, don’t you?Stranger Anybody who is “ashamed to call themselves a feminist” not for any _principled_ stand because “they don’t want to be associated with Andrea Dworkin’s ilk” is cowardly and ignorant. I stand by that. And I think anyone with a sense of intellectual integrity would feel that way. As for my second quote I just defended it above. But I add - apparently you think I’m referring to a larger group here (conservatives) maybe. I’m not. I’m referring to specific people who do specific things. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/69 "2005-04-14T16:48:55Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Anybody who is “ashamed to call themselves a feminist” not for any _principled_ stand because “they don’t want to be associated with Andrea Dworkin’s ilk” is cowardly and ignorant. I stand by that. And I think anyone with a sense of intellectual integrity would feel that way. Wow. Way to respect differing views, there! As I said, I think that many people who first enter college (or who discover politics earlier) have a very non-nuanced view of the world. You’re either with the team or against it, no in-between. So people encounter Dworkin and decide that you’re either with her, and therefore a feminist, or you’re against her, and therefore not a feminist. And some people decide that since they’re a feminist, they’ve gotta be with her. Yeah, that’s ignorant, but it’s not cowardly: it’s just something people do before they learn how damnably complicated the world is. It sorta looks to me as if you’re doing the same thing, by putting everyone in the opposing team without trying to understand why they might disagree with you. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/70 "2005-04-14T17:00:15Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Anybody who is “ashamed to call themselves a feminist” not for any _principled_ stand because “they don’t want to be associated with Andrea Dworkin’s ilk” is cowardly and ignorant. I stand by that. And I think anyone with a sense of intellectual integrity would feel that way. I firmly believe that women should have the same opportunites as men in all facets of civilization. However I wouldn’t call myself a feminist because it comes with a lot of unwanted baggage. I feel the same about a lot of other labels including conservative and liberal. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/71 "2005-04-14T17:10:38Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Anybody who is “ashamed to call themselves a feminist” not for any _principled_ stand because “they don’t want to be associated with Andrea Dworkin’s ilk” is cowardly and ignorant. I stand by that. And I think anyone with a sense of intellectual integrity would feel that way. Hi. Ignorant coward without a sense of intellectual integrity checking in here. When the terminology is coopted by a group, and we’re told – if you’re a feminist, this is what you are – I can (a) be brave and smart; (b) have a sense of intellectual integrity; and (c) be ashamed to call myself a feminist because I don’t want to be associated with Dworkin’s ilk. All three, at once! On preview, what **Left Hand of Dorkness** and **MGibson** said. Except that they said it much better. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/72 "2005-04-14T17:16:24Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Also, re: porn itself — where I disagree with Dworkin and her ilk: > > a) While, yes, deliberately sexualized images of women can be constructed so as to eroticize power relations, contempt towards women, violence towards women, and so on, it is _seriously damned important_ when theorizing in this manner to construct a theoretical category of deliciously erotic images of women that eroticize nothing of the sort, even if you go on to declare that category to be an empty set. And if you’re going to declare it to be an empty set, you’d better develop the reason why and elaborate it. Is it contextual, i.e., that in a context where men do, in fact, possess power over women, it is impossible for an erotic image of a female to be free of the taint of context? If so, abstract it out. State for the record that in a hypothetical world lacking such inequality (and why be a feminist if not to have such a world in mind as one’s goal?) that such images would not be a problem. Then you’ve got to elaborate on the difference between that and the kind of image that intrinsically, as part of the image, eroticizes power of men over women, especially if you’ve put a lot of time and effort into detailing the problems of violent and/or humiliating erotica and porn. > > b) You picked a hell of a time to suddenly become heterocentric. You accidentally leave your Adrienne Rich and Jill Johnston in your other luggage or something? You can’t just toss up the images and then treat them as if erotic images of women were inherently and exclusively appealing to males (all of whom are somehow suddenly heterosexual). And once you’ve distinguished between the image and the sexualized perception and acknowledged that the sexualization is in the perception and not inherently within the image (although it may well mirror cultural erotic norms which explains how the pornographer is able to know what will tantalize the buying audience, etc), you have to stretch your theory to show how (patriarchal) culture defines the erotic and pornographic as well as vice versa, how the mirroring works. You can’t just posit a cause-effect relationship. Your colleague MacKinnon was honest and perceptive enough to note that > > … in other words, that in the context of a power inequity between parties sexually attracted to each other, each party finds the power inequity (along with other things that are “of” the other or “of” the relationship dynamics as they experience them) to be erotic, at least under the right provocative circumstances. That this may mean that we all (women _and_ men) have an erotic stake that runs contrary to the desire for sexual equality, and to that extent you may be on to something important with regards to the contents of the porn we consume, but it also points up that porn only incidentally causes the refuels the power imbalance; for the most part, it simply reflects it. We find it sexy because it repeats the patterns in which our erotic experiences have occurred already. This sort of analysis makes **Cum Guzzling Cock Sluts** seem hardley worth the effort to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/73 "2005-04-14T17:17:28Z")
The problem is, even IF people say, “Well, screw what people think, I’ll call myself a feminist,” the Andrea Dworkin types drive them away. They screech and say, “You wear a bra/are attracted to men/wear dresses/shave/etc-you’re not a real feminist!!!” They’re hateful towards anyone who doesn’t fall in lock step, and they’ll alienate those who truly BELIEVE in rational feminism. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/74 "2005-04-14T17:53:27Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > This sort of analysis makes **Cum Guzzling Cock Sluts** seem hardley worth the effort to watch. I dunno. What’s it about? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/75 "2005-04-14T17:55:43Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > I dunno. What’s it about? > > Marc It’s about bike racing. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/76 "2005-04-14T17:56:27Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > They’re feminists. Do you really have to ask? I’m a feminist and so are all of my female friends (and some of my male ones), and I wasn’t outraged at all. Not all feminists fit into a neat little category. “If you’re not a feminist, you’re a masochist.” Gloria Steinem ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/77 "2005-04-14T18:00:26Z")
Let me correct that Steinem quote, it goes like this: “In my heart, I think a woman has two choices: either she’s a feminist or a masochist.” —Gloria Steinem ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/78 "2005-04-14T18:07:11Z")
Ah, I wasn’t thinking about her influence on others, just what her declaration (and similar ones like it) meant to _me_. However, it is correct, IMHO, that such an apparent and violent anti-male stance turned many a female off. Especially if they just skimmed the surface of the issue(s) and walked away with the same sort of stereotypes that go hand-in-hand with being a hardcore “feminazi.” But, as already noted, we come in all flavors and I was simply glad that _someone_, _anyone_ had no problem letting it be known. Despite their particular brand of idiocy. I did, however, distance myself from her ideas much in the same way that Christians run from good ol’ Phred. Guess I should have kept such a minor, personal exception to myself. Certainly when it conflicted with my overall opinion of the woman in general. Sorry. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/79 "2005-04-14T18:23:27Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > They’re feminists. Do you really have to ask? Now see, this is what I’m talking about. Dworkin has perpetuated the stereotype of the man-hating, anti-sex, unshaven, hostile feminist. Now, I KNOW a lot of what is attributed to her is false, or else taken severely out of context. But she still helped it along, and I will forever be angry about her and MacKinnon teaming up with Ed fucking Meese to ban pornography. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983/80 "2005-04-14T18:36:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > …and I will forever be angry about her and MacKinnon teaming up with Ed fucking Meese to ban pornography. Talk about strange bedfellows. So to speak, I mean. :o Boy, _that’s_ an image I’d now like to have permenantly erased from my brain. :smack: Calling Dr. Mierzwiak, calling Dr. Mierzwiak, report to the OR, stat. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-dworkin-has-died-how-do-we-feel-about-that/298983.md?page=5)