# Andrea Yates sentence overturned **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 6, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395 "2005-01-06T15:16:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Izzybella](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e56c9b/32.png) [@Izzybella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izzybella)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/21 "2005-01-06T18:49:33Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > Well, this IS Texas we’re talking about. I tried to let it go. I couldn’t. Please don’t lump the entire state of Texas into the Andrea Yates trial. Many thanks. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/22 "2005-01-06T19:04:20Z")
> [@Izzybella](#): > > I tried to let it go. I couldn’t. Please don’t lump the entire state of Texas into the Andrea Yates trial. Many thanks. Why not? First of all, the deplorable state of the Texas criminal justice system that tolerates, if not encourages, abuses like allowing this guy’s testimony at trial (as well as public defenders who sleep through trials, and similar atrocities) is definitely a contributing factor to this case. Second: Is it just me, or does Texas have a higher incidence of post-partum depression leading to death than other states? I mean, every last one of the recent incidents I can recall where some woman with PPD has killed her kids has been in Texas. Is PPD more common in Texas? Or do Texans just ignore people with the symptoms of PPD while in other places they notice and take appropriate action before (instead of after) someone dies? I think all of this says a great deal about the relative value of human life in Texas, compared to other places. And I think Texas really should answer for that. But I suppose it’s not required in this thread. This is, after all, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/23 "2005-01-06T20:42:23Z")
> [@laina\_f](#): > > The husband was arrogant past the point of common sense, and Andrea followed his lead. > > If they wanted leniency, they should have both gotten sterilized. I’m pretty sure that if she gets out they will immediately have more children. Probably not with each other. He divorced Andrea after the first trial. IIRC, he stated that he left her so that he could marry again and have more children. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/24 "2005-01-06T22:14:20Z")
I think there’s a world of difference between someone who’s “insane” due to an unchosen chemical imbalance, and someone who has chosen to believe in irrational beliefs. This woman falls into both categories. ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/25 "2005-01-06T23:16:04Z")
Well, Park Dietz just ruined his career. I can’t believe he will ever get a forensic gig again, as the opposing counsel would be able to totally discredit him. Not that he doesn’t deserve it, with an idiot move like this. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/26 "2005-01-06T23:33:40Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > Why not? First of all, the deplorable state of the Texas criminal justice system that tolerates, if not encourages, abuses like allowing this guy’s testimony at trial (as well as public defenders who sleep through trials, and similar atrocities) is definitely a contributing factor to this case. While I agree that certain aspects of the Texas criminal justice system are in serious need of reevaluation, I don’t think this necessarily follows. At the time there was no reason to disallow the psychiatrist’s testimony, since it wasn’t yet known that he/she was mistaken or lying. Once the truth was revealed, it was the Texas justice system that determined that the error required a new trial. > [@KellyM](#): > > Second: Is it just me, or does Texas have a higher incidence of post-partum depression leading to death than other states? I mean, every last one of the recent incidents I can recall where some woman with PPD has killed her kids has been in Texas. Is PPD more common in Texas? Or do Texans just ignore people with the symptoms of PPD while in other places they notice and take appropriate action before (instead of after) someone dies? I’m not aware that we have any higher rate of PPD or post-partum psychosis here or that many more reported cases of PPD related murder. The only ones that I’m familiar with off the top of my head was a woman who strangled her 4 month old son in 1998 who was acquitted by reason of insanity, and a woman who threw her 6 children in a bayou and killed 2 who was given probation, and the very recent one in Plano. There are plenty of high profile cases from other states where mothers have killed their young children: Guinevere Garcia in Illinois killed her 11 month old, Susan Smith in South Carolina who drowned her two kids and got the death penalty, Maria Amaya who slit the throats of her four children in New York, Kimberly Snyder who killed her four month old in Ohio, Jennifer Cisowski from Florida who threw her infant son down a flight of stairs because she said an inner voice told her to test her faith in God to resurrect the child, Elizabeth Feltman who killed her two young children in Chicago, Khoua Her of St. Paul Minneapolis who strangled her six children…you get the idea. > [@KellyM](#): > > I think all of this says a great deal about the relative value of human life in Texas, compared to other places. And I think Texas really should answer for that. Who in Texas, though? We don’t speak with a unitary voice like a Greek chorus down here, y’know. > [@KellyM](#): > > But I suppose it’s not required in this thread. This is, after all, IMHO. Wait, you mean we Texans who are posting to this thread should personally should answer for something? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/27 "2005-01-06T23:39:31Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > Andrea Yates belongs in a mental hospital, not in prison. > > I would never excuse what she did, but she is/was obviously mentally ill. She had severe postpartum depression, which her husband completely ignored. He’s a prick. She tried to commit suicide a few times, went catatonic for awhile, was in a psyciatric hospital… and he just kept on getting her pregnant. I agree with you wholeheartedly. This is not a Twinkie Defense-- PPD is a serious, terrible, powerful illness. It makes people do things they would never _dream_ of doing otherwise. My aunt killed herself last year because of it. I don’t think the public is sufficiently educated on PPD. People don’t understand it, or discount it as “baby blues.” If the jurors had truly understood what happened to her, they never would have sent her to prison. She needed to go to a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/28 "2005-01-07T00:21:03Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > Andrea Yates belongs in a mental hospital, not in prison. > > I would never excuse what she did, but she is/was obviously mentally ill. She had severe postpartum depression, which her husband completely ignored. He’s a prick. She tried to commit suicide a few times, went catatonic for awhile, was in a psyciatric hospital… and he just kept on getting her pregnant. > > Read up on it if you want. It’s a sad case all around. I do agree that she belongs in a mental hospital, but I don’t know that I’m willing to pin this all on Mr. Yates either. It seems that he did not always make the best decisions and I’m quite sure that they were a wacky fundie couple with very little regard for the outside world. I am also fully aware that many wacky fundie families who don’t always make the best decisions have families and that most of them do not end by Mommy Dearest methodically drowning each of her children, saving the oldest for last. Most PPD sufferers do not drown four children and then **chase and overpower** their oldest child while he begs them to stop. Her husband didn’t make the best decisions, but he did have a system in place to have his mother stay with her during the day while he was away at work. She had a very small window time in which to kill all of her children and I just can’t imagine that her husband would have seen this coming. I wouldn’t have expected this sort of atrocity from a batshit stranger, let alone my spouse and childrens mother! Pinning this all on Mr. Yates feels very much like blaming the victim to me. I’m sure he beats himself up on a regular basis for not recognizing how dangerous of a situation his children were in. Can you even imagine knowing that because YOU didn’t listen to your doctor or because YOU believed that your wife was okay when she said she was that all of your children are DEAD and your wife is a murderer? I honestly can’t believe the guy isn’t batshit crazy, running around Central Park naked with a giant chicken head on. I seriously would’ve lost my sanity meter as soon as I saw the police barricades in front of my own home. This woman is very obviously sick, as are most people who would take the life of an innocent person while they are actively begging you not to. You’d pretty much HAVE to be sick to engage in this sort of activity, wouldn’t you? Where do we draw the line? Should Dahmer have been in a hospital instead of prison? How about McVeigh? Gary Leon Ridgway? How much compassion can we reasonably have for dangerous aberrants? ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/29 "2005-01-07T00:45:42Z")
Aggghh. Not to get too off topic, but I just read through some of the CrimeLibrary article that **Indy** linked to earlier in this thread and found this gem > [@](#): > > He came right away. “What happened to Mary?” he asked. Then apparently realizing what his mother was doing, he ran from the bathroom but Andrea chased him down and dragged him back to the tub. She forced him in face down and drowned him right next to Mary. She admitted in her confession that he had put up the biggest struggle of all. At times he managed to slip from her grasp and get some air, but she always managed to push him back down. \*\*His last words were, “I’m sorry.” \*\* She left him there floating in a tub full of feces, urine and vomit, where police found him. She lifted Mary out and placed her on the bed with her other brothers. Andrea gently covered her before calling the police and her husband. It was time. (bolding mine) You’ll excuse me while I go cry my eyes out and pray that I never have two minutes alone with that horrible, horrible monster. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/30 "2005-01-07T00:49:55Z")
No questions asked, no opinion expressed and no poll implied. Moving this from IMHO to MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/31 "2005-01-07T00:57:46Z")
Sorry, **Czarcasm** …like I said, I wasn’t sure. I was sort of looking for the opinions of others, so I thought IMHO might be right. Me, I have no opinions of any kind on any subject whatsoever. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/32 "2005-01-07T03:50:49Z")
I hope that, in the end, Andrea Yates ends up in a mental hospital, where she belongs. My own mother (who had 4 kids in 5.5 years) suffered horribly from severe post-partum depression when I was young. She admitted to me during the Andrea Yates trial that she sometimes had the barely controllable urge to do something terrible to us. Fortunately, Mom never suffered the kind of schizophrenic break that Andrea Yates did. As the child of someone in a similar situation, I can’t find it in my heart to blame Andrea Yates. This kind of illness is unfortunately fairly common. Luckily, many sufferers get help on their own, or because friends, family, and/or doctors intervene. I’m inclined to place blame on Rusty Yates and Andrea’s doctor. They knew she was diagnosed with schizophrenic-type illness (IIRC). They had a duty to make sure she got the help she needed and that she was not left alone with those children. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/33 "2005-01-07T03:55:48Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > Should Dahmer have been in a hospital instead of prison? How about McVeigh? Gary Leon Ridgway? How much compassion can we reasonably have for dangerous aberrants? They were not diagnosed **before** their crimes with a schizophreniform disorder. Yates was. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/34 "2005-01-07T04:13:40Z")
> [@Q.N. Jones](#): > > They were not diagnosed **before** their crimes with a schizophreniform disorder. Yates was. I don’t know that I would consider lack of appropriate medical attention prior to their crimes as a sufficient reason to let them hang while we work to treat and possibly rehabilitate Andrea Yates. Don’t get me wrong, I do feel that her doctors were incredibly irresponsible with her treatment. I feel that her doctors were in a position where they KNEW what the possible outcomes might be if she were left untreated with five children in her care. I honestly don’t think her husband thought she would ever be capable of such an unthinkable act. I just don’t get how a diagnosis changes anything. If a medical professional told Dahmer’s parents that he was batshit years before he started murdering and eating people, would he no longer have been accountable for his actions? Maybe I’m missing a bigger picture somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/35 "2005-01-07T04:20:02Z")
**KellyM** , just to play the hypothetical “What if?” card, what if I were to conclude that all transgendered individuals were the same as the ones who appeared on Geraldo and Springer? Hmmmm? :dubious: I don’t think you’d appreciate that, would you? Of course not! That would not be right. So why is it okay for you to judge everyone in Texas? :rolleyes: Oh, and while I think it wasn’t totally his fault, Mr. Yates did indeed have reason to believe she would harm the kids. He had said as much, she had threatened to do it before, and when he was informed, I believe he said something like, “So she finally did it?” BOTH of them are responsible for ignoring her condition. And if I’m not mistaken, it was post-partum psychosis, which is akin to schizophrenia, that she was suffering from. She truly believed that if she didn’t kill her children, they would be corrupted by Satan and go to Hell. In her delusions, she was doing the right thing, to assure they would go to Heaven. I weep for the whole lot of them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/36 "2005-01-07T04:23:27Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > I just don’t get how a diagnosis changes anything. If a medical professional told Dahmer’s parents that he was batshit years before he started murdering and eating people, would he no longer have been accountable for his actions? Maybe I’m missing a bigger picture somehow. Legally, no, he wouldn’t be, if he was so out of it he couldn’t differentiate between right and wrong. That was the case with John Hinckley Jr, I believe. Mental illness can cause a person to no longer be held accountable for his or her actions. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/37 "2005-01-07T04:38:58Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > I don’t know that I would consider lack of appropriate medical attention prior to their crimes as a sufficient reason to let them hang while we work to treat and possibly rehabilitate Andrea Yates. You completely misunderstand me. Those serial killers did not have at any time a mental illness that made them incompetent or out of touch with reality. Yates did, before and after her crimes. Yates and (most) serial killers have two totally different problems. > [@](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, I do feel that her doctors were incredibly irresponsible with her treatment. I feel that her doctors were in a position where they KNEW what the possible outcomes might be if she were left untreated with five children in her care. One thing we agree upon. > [@](#): > > I honestly don’t think her husband thought she would ever be capable of such an unthinkable act. A parent has a duty to make sure their kids are in the care of someone competent. Randy Yates knew his wife was not competent. That’s all it takes for me to condemn him. > [@](#): > > I just don’t get how a diagnosis changes anything. If a medical professional told Dahmer’s parents that he was batshit years before he started murdering and eating people, would he no longer have been accountable for his actions? Maybe I’m missing a bigger picture somehow. Yes, you do not understand the difference between being a psychopath and being psychotic. Psychopaths like Dahmer are in touch with reality and know the difference between right and wrong. Being a psychopath is not a defense to murder. Psychotics are not in touch with reality. They hallucinate and have delusions. They are often not able to distinguish between right and wrong. Meaning that psychosis is a potential defense to murder. My point about Andrea Yates being diagnosed _before_ her crime is made only to indicate that schizophreniform disorder was not a defense “made up” after the fact. And also to explain why I hold Randy Yates and involved doctor(s) in such contempt. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/38 "2005-01-07T05:11:20Z")
> [@Q.N. Jones](#): > > Yes, you do not understand the difference between being a psychopath and being psychotic. > > Psychopaths like Dahmer are in touch with reality and know the difference between right and wrong. Being a psychopath is not a defense to murder. > > Psychotics are not in touch with reality. They hallucinate and have delusions. They are often not able to distinguish between right and wrong. Meaning that psychosis is a potential defense to murder. Okay, that makes alot more sense. I am familiar with the standard of not knowing right from wrong being a deciding factor in insanity pleas, but was not aware that the medical consensus was that she did not know that what she did was a crime. In my mind, the fact that it was premeditated and she immediately contacted the authorities sort of sets her apart from someone who’s just listening to the voices in her head and trying to make them stoppit. Of course I understand that the law and medical profession have entirely different standards by which they judge and I’m willing to accept their opinion from a legal standpoint, no matter how oogy this woman and her actions make me feel on a personal level. Thank you for clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/39 "2005-01-07T05:34:33Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > Okay, that makes alot more sense. I am familiar with the standard of not knowing right from wrong being a deciding factor in insanity pleas, but was not aware that the medical consensus was that she did not know that what she did was a crime. I did not say it was a medical consensus that she didn’t know what she did was a crime. What I said (or meant to convey) was that the psychiatric community would agree that being psychotic/schizophrenic makes it very likely/possible that Andrea Yates didn’t know what she was doing was wrong. Psychiatrists would then look at her specific behaviors and statements and try to decide whether she did or not. I don’t have any idea whether or not the relevent medical community has found a consensus in Yates’ case, or what it is. In fact, it is confusion over this issue that has led to the overturning of her life sentence. > [@](#): > > In my mind, the fact that it was premeditated and she immediately contacted the authorities sort of sets her apart from someone who’s just listening to the voices in her head and trying to make them stoppit. These are the types of behaviors and statements the experts will examine to determine whether she knew what was right and wrong. > [@](#): > > Of course I understand that the law and medical profession have entirely different standards by which they judge and I’m willing to accept their opinion from a legal standpoint, no matter how oogy this woman and her actions make me feel on a personal level. To out my own biases: I tend to feel that anyone who is psychotic at the time of their crimes should be not guilty by reason of insanity, and sentenced to meaningful and lengthy psychiatric treatment. To state my qualifications in this matter: I have a law degree and am currently working towards my Ph.D. in clinical psychology. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395/40 "2005-01-07T05:45:14Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Legally, no, he wouldn’t be, if he was so out of it he couldn’t differentiate between right and wrong. That was the case with John Hinckley Jr, I believe. > > Mental illness can cause a person to no longer be held accountable for his or her actions. The Hinckley example makes a tangle of things. If doctors told Dahmer’s parents years before he started killing and eating people that he was a psychopath (which was his diagnosis), he would still have been found guilty because he knew what he was doing was wrong. Hinckley was diagnosed as a schizophrenic (psychotic). He was also found in a court of law to have been legally insane at the time of his crime (i.e., didn’t know right from wrong). That is why he was sentenced to a mental institution, not prison. Hinckley and Dahmer are two very different cases and very different types of crime. Hinckley was not a serial killer. Neither is Andrea Yates. Whether or not the criminal or his/her doctors knows the diagnosis ahead of time doesn’t matter, except that it tends to show it was not made up as an “excuse” after the fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates-sentence-overturned/283395.md?page=3)