# Andrea yates **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067 "2005-04-25T21:02:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![micky05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@micky05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/micky05)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/21 "2005-04-26T17:09:25Z")
As a person who suffered from postpartum depression (a much much milder case) last summer after my daughter was born…I can see how it could get so bad that you’d really lose it. Luckily, I had a support system through my coworkers, even though I was at home, and my family who recognized my symptoms and got me out of the house and well again. Now, I never once considered hurting myself or my kid. But the feelings of hopelessness and being overwhelmed got really ugly. Its more than just feeling blue all day. I had complications when my daughter was born, and had to have surgery a week later, so I was laid up and stuck in the house much longer than expected. After nine months of carrying a kid that you cant even leave the house to show off, its no wonder I was a mess. All that said…there are plenty of support group and such available out there that could have helped this woman. I blame the husband. He had to have known she wasn’t right. I hope they help her, sterilize her, and let her out. The pain she must feel 24/7 from what she did is punishment enough. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/22 "2005-04-26T22:05:23Z")
I read somewhere that she goes back and forth, one day knowing what she did, the next day asking, “When are the kids going to visit me?” It’s tragic. They should give the hubby a vasectomy. He sounds like a real prince, and he got off scott free. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/23 "2005-04-26T22:44:29Z")
Back when this case was “new”, a friend of mine wanted the government to kill her. He even offered to do it himself, irrespective of the courts calling for 40 years of prison time instead. As a European, I said and still say that society should rather strive to cure our mentally ill, than to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/24 "2005-04-26T23:33:45Z")
You never truly know a person until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes. –anonymous proverb ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/25 "2005-04-26T23:46:56Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And what if she made an error in judgement in traffic and killed them all that way? Life in prison? The death penalty? The fact that she took their lives should have no bearing on how society deals with her now. What?! Oh yes, it should. I don’t care if she was mentally ill, or whatever, but I think you are exaggerating more than a little when you say it shouldn’t have bearing on it at all. Like it or not, this woman is a mass murderer. Rational response? Yes, she is sick, and yes, she needs help - but that doesn’t mean releasing her so she can get pregnant again. Obviously some switches are loose and she needs to be supervised. Best way to do it? Tie her tubes so we don’t have to watch her constantly, and she can live the “free” life you think she deserves. No snarkiness, we just disagree on that point. Emotional reponse? Kill the bitch. Yes, extreme - but all the bleeding hearts think about is her. Her making an error in judgement in traffic is miles and miles different from her chasing her kids all over the house to willfully drown them one at a time in the bathtub, and I find it sick that you should compare the two. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/26 "2005-04-27T04:25:22Z")
She should probably be institutionalized for the rest of her life. On one hand, I feel sorry for the fact that she’s mentally ill. On the other, both she and her husband KNEW this, were warned repeatedly by doctors for her to stay on her meds and NOT have another kid. Also, her husband had some major warning signs that this was going to happen. What a fuck up. It’s too bad one can’t plead guilty yet insane. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/27 "2005-04-27T05:42:05Z")
> [@](#): > > **Anaamika** : Emotional reponse? Kill the bitch. Yes, extreme - but all the bleeding hearts think about is her. Her making an error in judgement in traffic is miles and miles different from her chasing her kids all over the house to willfully drown them one at a time in the bathtub, and I find it sick that you should compare the two. I find it disturbing that anyone would want to “kill the bitch” (translation: execute an extremely mentally ill woman.) You use the term _willfully_ as if that could apply to someone whose mind is lost in post-partum psychosis. _It can happen to any woman. You never know._ Certainly she should be treated and separated from others for as long as her illness remains. And she should never have children again. > [@](#): > > **Guinastasia** : On the other, both she and her husband KNEW this, were warned repeatedly by doctors for her to stay on her meds and NOT have another kid. Sounds like her judgment had been impaired from previous births. Do you know what meds she was on? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![phall0106](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phall0106/32/5934_2.png) [@phall0106](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phall0106)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/28 "2005-04-27T16:32:41Z")
> [@Rooves](#): > > The husband and wife were both in that together. He knew she had problems as they kept procreating. > > Besides, think of what it might take to drown your own kids one after another. If there were ever such a thing as insanity… > If I was her though, I’d wish to die. I’m with you, **Rooves**. I’ve worked in the social services field for some time now, and am familiar with mental illnesses and the drama and trauma they can create. That being said, regardless of the circumstances (PPD, depression, chemical imbalances, addiction, etc.) that “made” me do something like drown my kids, there’s absolutely no way in the world that even with treatment and the condiditon under control, could I live a “normal” life–nor would I want to do so. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/29 "2005-04-27T17:19:54Z")
I think this thread is more apropos for **Great Debates** at this point. Off it goes. - SkipMagic ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/30 "2005-04-27T18:27:25Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Sounds like her judgment had been impaired from previous births. Do you know what meds she was on? Just curious. I looked it up on Crime Library-it was Haldol, which was apparently the only thing that would work for her. Either way, the whole thing could have been prevented-part of the problem was their religious beliefs. They believed it was “up to God”, women couldn’t work outside the house, homeschooling, etc. So while yes, her judgment wasn’t reliable, her husband should bear partial responbility, since he had warning signs that he just ignored. [Okay, here we go.](http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/index.html) Some relevent information (I hope I’m not quoting too much, but it’s a very long article-some twenty pages worth): > [@](#): > > Around 10:00am on June 20, 2001, Rusty Yates received a startling phone call from his wife, Andrea, whom he had left only an hour before. > > “You need to come home,” she said. > > Puzzled, he asked, “What’s going on?” > > She just repeated her statement and then added, “It’s time. I did it.” > > Not entirely sure what she meant but in light of her recent illness, he asked her to explain and she said, “It’s the children.” > > Now a chill shot through him. “Which one?” he asked. > > “All of them.” > [@](#): > > Wendell Odom came on the case to assist Parnham, and he said that all Andrea asked when he sat with her was what kind of plea they were going to enter and insisted she did not want to plead not guilty. He watched her, with her sunken eyes and hair hanging over her face, and believed she might not even be competent to stand trial. She had said that she heard the voice of Satan coming out of the walls of her cell. Dr. Lucy Puryear, a psychiatrist from the Baylor College of Medicine, said on Court TV’s Mugshots program “She was the sickest person I had ever seen in my life.” In those early days, Andrea was unbathed, dressed in an orange prison uniform, and seemingly unaware of what was going on around her. She was shaking, and every now and then she absently scratched at her head. Puryear believed she was suffering from postpartum psychosis. > [@](#): > > While postpartum depression occurs in up to twenty percent of women who have children, psychotic manifestations are much more rare, and thus much less understood. Only one in five hundred births result in the mother’s postpartum psychosis, says forensic psychiatrist Michael Welner. Unlike in Britain, where the mental health system watches mothers for months afterward for signs of depression and mood swings, people in America have a difficult time understanding how hormonal shifts can actually cause violent hallucinations and thoughts. Such women can become incoherent, paranoid, irrational, and delusional. They may have outright hallucinations, and are at risk of committing suicide or harming their child—particularly “for the child’s own good.” The woman herself will not recognize it as an illness, so those countries that have programs for it generally advise immediate hospitalization. > [@](#): > > Parnham called Dr. Gerald Harris, a clinical psychologist who had interviewed Andrea in prison on four occasions. On June 25, she had shown signs of psychosis and hallucinations. She said she had seen Satan in her cell and he was talking to her. She had a difficult time processing Harris’s questions and sometimes did not seem to hear them at all. She did make it clear that she wanted to be executed so that she and Satan, who possessed her, would be destroyed. She had insisted that she would not enter a plea of not guilty. She did not need an attorney, and she wanted her hair cut into the shape of a crown. She believed the number of the Antichrist, 666, was imprinted on her scalp. > > By the end of August, on medication, she was much improved. She reported no hallucinations and was able to hold a conversation. She still had delusions about Satan but insisted she was not mentally ill. Her intelligence was above average, but she had difficulty remembering things—an important issue for competency. She believed that Satan lived inside her and the way to be rid of him was for her to be killed. So, I’m torn. I really do understand how sick she was. At the same time, there were so many warning signs, so many clues, so many chances that they IGNORED that it really pisses me off. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/31 "2005-04-27T18:35:13Z")
She’s completely bonkers. One of the forensic psychiatrists who interviewed her is associated with my uni and we did an entire unit on post-partum psychosis and I had to sit through hours of un-released video footage of this chick for my forensic psychiatry class. Although admittedly these were early interviews-don’t know about lately. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/32 "2005-04-27T18:56:56Z")
From Guin’s cite: > [@](#): > > Such women can become incoherent, paranoid, irrational, and delusional. They may have outright hallucinations, and are at risk of committing suicide or harming their child—particularly **"for the child’s own good.**" That’s exactly what the psychiatrist in my hometown said about the two women I mentioned. They do believe they are doing an act of love, whacky as that may seem. If she did suffer from post-partum psychosis that woman does not belong in jail. She’s the 6th victim in this saga. ---
**Author:** ![zoltar7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b38774/32.png) [@zoltar7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoltar7)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/33 "2005-04-27T19:37:39Z")
Killing this woman will make bathtubs safer for children everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/34 "2005-04-27T20:42:47Z")
To me, the most compelling piece of evidence that shows Andrea Yates is insane is the fact that she’s still alive. No sane person could live with the knowledge that they’d killed their children. Aren’t DP advocates always saying that the DP isn’t punishment, it’s a deterrent? I don’t see how killing Andrea Yates is much of a deterrent to other people. What’s the message, “don’t develop post-partum psychosis”? Do they think there’s a rash of women who are tearing down the door to kill their kids who are only being kept from it by the rule of law? The fact that there’s people who want her dead shows that people really don’t think it’s a deterrent, they just want to fry that “bitch.” Killing Andrea Yates will not keep one single person from murder. I still can’t believe that her husband and family weren’t given jail time. If a parent puts a loaded gun in the same room with a child and the child shoots himself, the parent is liable. It’s the same thing here. He left five children home alone with an actively psychotic woman. He didn’t take the basic precautions to protect his children, such as hiring a nanny or nurse to be there when he could not. His actions were the equivalent of throwing his kids into a lion cage. It’s not the lion’s fault if it eats the kids, just like it isn’t Andrea’s fault for drowning hers. And so, the cycle of letting fathers off the hook while mothers (including under-medicated and under-supervised mentally ill ones) take all the blame continues. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/35 "2005-04-27T20:51:34Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > No sane person could live with the knowledge that they’d killed their children. If you read the article cited by Guinastasia you’ll see that she did try to kill herself after she had been put on medication and the enormity of her act dawned on her. I wonder how many of the “fry her now!” crowd took the time to read the article. Even if the article is only 50% true you will leave with no doubt that Andrea Yates is really sick. Her husband failed her, her family failed her, the medial stablishment failed her and the best solution we can come up with is “fry her”. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/36 "2005-04-27T21:19:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > What?! Oh yes, it should. I don’t care if she was mentally ill, or whatever, but I think you are exaggerating more than a little when you say it shouldn’t have bearing on it at all. > > Like it or not, this woman is a mass murderer. Rational response? Yes, she is sick, and yes, she needs help - but that doesn’t mean releasing her so she can get pregnant again. Obviously some switches are loose and she needs to be supervised. Best way to do it? Tie her tubes so we don’t have to watch her constantly, and she can live the “free” life you think she deserves. No snarkiness, we just disagree on that point. > > Emotional reponse? Kill the bitch. Yes, extreme - but all the bleeding hearts think about is her. Her making an error in judgement in traffic is miles and miles different from her chasing her kids all over the house to willfully drown them one at a time in the bathtub, and I find it sick that you should compare the two. There is not one person here who thinks ONLY about the mother. Of course it’s a horrible tragedy. However, it’s a huge stretch to say that she’s just out there getting knocked up. Religious extremism is at fault here, if you must point fingers. Her husband bought into it, she bought into it, and her mental illness kept her from seeing that she took the game too far. We “bleeding hearts” understand what happened to the kids. But their mother cannot be held responsible for something that was done in a psychotic state. She is no more “at fault” than someone who unintentionally killed their kids in an accident. She was incapable of NOT killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/37 "2005-04-27T21:30:17Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > She is no more “at fault” than someone who unintentionally killed their kids in an accident. She was incapable of NOT killing them. I think that you are way off base here. An accident is just that, an accident. Holding several kids under the water is not an accident - regardless of mental state. Are women with post partum depression/psychosis more likely to suffer from regular depression/psychosis? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/38 "2005-04-27T21:52:52Z")
Willfully executing an extremely mentally ill person for an act done in the thows of physchosis is more henious and evil than the original act. You need will to commit a crime. If she had killed them for the insurance, or to get back at her husband, or because she didn’t like them that would be one thing. But she killed them because she was totally nuts and thought satan was an active part of their household. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/39 "2005-04-27T21:55:34Z")
The worst part of this whole story is the part where the husband wasn’t put in jail for life. I’m sure our folks at the state prison in Huntsville would make him feel right at home. Andrea Yates was not competent to be left alone with kids EVER, and he knew it. He wouldn’t let her get the help she needed because apparently it goes against his god’s plan. Randy Yates is 100% responsible for all of it. I feel really bad for that woman, and she definitely doesn’t need to be out on her own. It sucks to be institutionalized, but it sucks more to be crazy enough to be able to drown five children. ---
**Author:** ![Susie\_Derkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@Susie\_Derkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susie_Derkins)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067/40 "2005-04-27T22:00:53Z")
If you haven’t experienced it, you have absolutely no idea how it takes complete control over you. For months I thought of nothing but killing my baby. Every time I took out a knife to cut up a chicken for dinner, I pictured cutting her up. Every time I gave her a bath, I thought about drowning her. If I was alone with her, I wanted to put my hand over her face and smother her. Obviously I didn’t do it, and that’s because I told my husband, my mother, my mother-in-law, and my doctor how I was feeling. I didn’t want anyone to LET me do it. I was sick and I only had the barest thread of control to which I clung with all my might. The doctor put me on medication, and my mother-in-law took the baby as much as she could. I got a job working the same shift as my then-husband so that I was never alone with her. With everyone’s help, I got through it, and now I’m a damn good mother. However, I have made the choice to never have another child because it was like being in a nightmare 24 hours a day for months. I can’t go through that again. I might not make it through. My point is that I would never in a million years understood how a woman could kill her kids unless I’d been through the hell that is post partum psychosis, so bless those of you who have not been through it but at least try to understand. I would have killed myself before I killed my baby (I’d even planned how I would do it), and I almost wish that Andrea had made that choice, too. But maybe it was different for her. No one but her will ever know what her hell was like. I just wish that she’d had the help and support that I had and I doubt this would ever have happened. She’d probably only have one kid and be living a normal life by now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrea-yates/301067.md?page=3)