# Andrew Lloyd Webber is a craptastic HACK **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192 "2005-01-11T08:45:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/41 "2005-01-12T16:39:39Z")
**storyteller0910** , well put. And, hey, don’t knock the boss, he’s got some great rock arrangements on a lot of his albums! 😉 (sorry, uber-Springsteen fan here) Also, I think ‘Objectively Adequate’ would be an OK band name. 😃 **CuriousCanuck** , _…it does not mean that the Spears Corp. and their music is any less of an art than Jeff Buckley…_ That made me think of something kind of interesting (though perhaps more suited to CS than tagged at the end of this thread). There is, in the visual arts, a line (though it’s not always clear where it is) between an art and a craft. Might it be that the entity that is Britney Spears, for example, is more of a craft than an art? Repeating formulaic tropes for general mass consumption and personal gain, without endeavouring to push the creative envelope? Interesting thought to ponder, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![CuriousCanuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@CuriousCanuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CuriousCanuck)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/42 "2005-01-12T16:48:23Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Interesting thought to ponder, anyway. You are making me think in an ALW thread? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/43 "2005-01-12T17:16:38Z")
> [@Bean Counter](#): > > I’m sorry, but is anyone else getting slapped in the face by the irony of someone with the screen-name “Tracy Lord” berating the writer of musical opera shows? > > How about if we substitute an “I” instead of the the “Y” in Tracy and make the last name plural? Now do you see it? > > You mean like the porn star? > > My apologies if that is you real name, but my irony meter was pinging off the scale. _sigh_ No, like Katharine Hepburn’s character in _The Philadelphia Story_, but thank you for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/44 "2005-01-12T17:48:07Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > Heck yeah, “lowbrow” can be tons of fun. I’m somewhat suspicious of people who never indulge in a guilty pleasure - who on earth can remain highbrow at all times? > > It’s when people can’t tell the difference that it’s infuriating to those of us who can. This is very true. My original rant was really directed at two targets: Sir Lloyd-Webber himself, and the people who think he’s a “great” composer. Who here doesn’t intellectually slum it every once in a while? My problem is when the perception that popularity = quality starts to grow, and especially when Webber makes so much more money than other, better composers. The latter really just needles me, I’m sure Sondheim et al don’t need the money. 🙂 Webber’s so popular, I think, because people want to go to “the theater” but not actually have to see an intelligent show. He’s the Jerry Bruckheimer of the West End and Broadway. _CATS_ and _Phantom_ _feel_ like high-brow musicals, as opposed to, say, _Avenue Q_ (it’s got puppets!) and _The Producers_ (it’s got Hitler!), and especially _Assassins_, for example. I’m not talking who one should and shouldn’t like – if you want to belt out “Don’t Cry For Me, Argentina” into a hairbrush in the shower, that is, as Ms. Spears would say, your perogative. But when you tell me that _Jesus Christ Superstar_ is a _better_ show than _West Side Story?_ Nope. Not so. HAAAAAAAAAAACK. ---
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/45 "2005-01-12T17:49:02Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Lloyd Webber writes melodies that are mostly memorable, and his productions are always flawlessly put together - well cast, generally well directed, and well performed with outstanding design work surrounding them. His music, while not always brilliant, is pleasing to hear and usually suited to the tone of the piece (contrast with Frank Wildhorn, a true hack, who writes the same songs - almost literally - for every show, heedless of setting or style). > > I don’t get the venomous distaste for the man’s music, is what I’m saying. I think it’s objectively adequate, and there’s room for that right alongside the objectively great. There’s room for entertainment that doesn’t make you think alongside the entertainment that does. > > Or, on preview: what Eonwe said. Well, we agree on Wildhorn. I don’t have any problem with people going to see ALW shows - I don’t like them and will not pay to see them when I can see others I like better. And hell, if it gets people to the theatre? Great. Perhaps they’ll branch out to more sophisticated musicals like Sondheim or Bernstein or what-have-you. But, then again, if all they see is ALW, at least it’s money that goes to support the arts, whether you or I agree on how MUCH of it is art. But what’s objectively adequate to some may not be objectively adequate to others. To me, they don’t even APPROACH adequate in terms of what I listen and look for in a show. I want music that’s layered - I want story that’s intense and well-crafted - I want acting that brings me to a tear with one glance or word. And I just don’t get that from ALW’s shows. Someone else may, but not me. A friend and I have had this discussion since the last Tonys regarding Wicked and Avenue Q - the music in Wicked is so much more intense, it has more depth to it, just the amazing orchestration can put me in tears - without any singing. Avenue Q - I love the show. It’s a fun, crazy show. It’s new and inventive. But musically, it can’t hold a candle to Wicked. The orchestration is fairly basic and standard, although lyrically, I think it’s pretty much a riot. And Wicked is a flawless production in terms of staging, costuming, acting, singing, and directing. Should Avenue Q have won the Tony for the inventiveness and fun? Or did Wicked deserve it for the rich orchestration and solid production? (FTR, I’ve seen both of these, so I’m not just spouting out of my ass here). We both feel like Wicked was robbed, but others think that Avenue Q was deserving. When it comes down to it, we’re probably both right. And it’s always going to be the same with the theatre - some will like Lloyd Webber and sneer at seeing a Sondheim show, some will champion Sondheim and belittle Webber’s talent (yes, I’m one of the latter). Others may like both. Doesn’t necessarily mean anyone is wrong or right, just means we have different tastes. So if some of us want to go in a thread in the Pit and bitch to high heaven that we think ALW’s music sucks, big flippin’ deal. E. ---
**Author:** ![Bean\_Counter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/db5fbb/32.png) [@Bean\_Counter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bean_Counter)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/46 "2005-01-12T17:55:05Z")
> [@Tracy Lord](#): > > _sigh_ No, like Katharine Hepburn’s character in _The Philadelphia Story_, but thank you for playing. I would have chosen the “Tracy Lord” from High Society myself. Katharine Hepburn instead of Grace Kelly? Please… But now the screen name makes sense, especially after reading Amazon’s synopsis of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/47 "2005-01-12T18:09:40Z")
Have you all completly forgotten ALW’s contribution to the field of outdoor cooking? ---
**Author:** ![Already\_in\_Use](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/48 "2005-01-12T18:15:12Z")
Eh, I don’t think his simplicity is necessarily a bad thing. I mean, millions of blues bands play basically the same song night after night, and some of them are pretty good. I don’t really like Webber’s music these days because I find some of it a bit cloying and over-the-top, but then again, I wouldn’t say those qualities are unique to Webber’s work. I have the same complaints about much of _Les Misérables_. I did, however, like Webber a lot as a young child, and I think my interest in the genre-crossing aspects of his musical form (cheesy though it may be) started me on the path into more interesting stuff like the Beatles, Zappa, and noise rock. So I can’t say my exposure to his work was really a bad thing. And I have to admit that “Don’t Cry For Me, Argentina” and “Another Suitcase in Another Hall” are pretty decent songs. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/49 "2005-01-12T19:28:02Z")
> [@Bean Counter](#): > > Katharine Hepburn instead of Grace Kelly? Please… Them’s fightin’ words! _grin_ Considering that _Philadelphia Story_ has the most recognizable incarnation of Ms. Lord – and that it came first, seeing that _High Society_ is just a musical version of the show – and that Philip Barry wrote the character of Tracy Lord with Ms. Hepburn in mind – I’ll stick with my original reference. 🙂 No offense to Princess Grace, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bean\_Counter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/db5fbb/32.png) [@Bean\_Counter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bean_Counter)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/50 "2005-01-12T20:14:13Z")
[Complete hijack] > [@Tracy Lord](#): > > Them’s fightin’ words! _grin_ > > Considering that _Philadelphia Story_ has the most recognizable incarnation of Ms. Lord – and that it came first, seeing that _High Society_ is just a musical version of the show – and that Philip Barry wrote the character of Tracy Lord with Ms. Hepburn in mind – I’ll stick with my original reference. 🙂 No offense to Princess Grace, of course. Ok, now I’m intrigued and must rent _Philadelphia Story_ for sake of comparison. [/Complete hijack] ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/51 "2005-01-12T20:29:41Z")
> [@CuriousCanuck](#): > > I would be interested to know from your point of view what exactly the difference is between the two. Seems to me Ms. Lord (et al) already covered that territory. However, someone did mention Thomas Kinkade in this thread and I do know a few things about visual art. [Hence this thread, which I started in 2003 (not gonna go over that topic again).](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177984&perpage=50&highlight=fessie&pagenumber=4) ---
**Author:** ![Delly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Delly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delly)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/52 "2005-01-13T03:45:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Your cultural and intellectual superiors. > > \ Ah Miller, Miller, Miller… If only that were true! No seriously I can understand someone else not liking ALW, thats fine! Each to his own, just dont shit all over someone else for having the audacity (sp?) for liking some of the works of ALW! And Eonwe, yes people can trash ALW’s works, but some people trashed the people who liked the works of ALW (not the OP). And as for not not being bothered… I wrote that before I wrote a decent responce, I suppose I am bothered in a way about it all. I wrote that paragraph and then wrote more then I intended. I posted what I wrote because I knew if I didnt, I wouldnt post anyting at all (maybe that would have been better). And no, things dont have to be compicated to be good but it sure seems that way of late. For example, tell someone you like a Britney Spears song, its like What the f\*ck?! or if you enjoy the wor(l)d of JRR Tolkien, again its met with puzzlement and certain movies can fall like this too. Its because while they are good/brilliant/excellant, they’re simplistic, and therefore do not have much meaning to the modern reader/listener. I hope I make sence, I did to myself when I started out but now I’m not really sure! ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/53 "2005-01-13T04:11:41Z")
And in other news, the sun is hot. ---
**Author:** ![Bean\_Counter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/db5fbb/32.png) [@Bean\_Counter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bean_Counter)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/54 "2005-01-13T05:09:21Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > And in other news, the sun is hot. But it’s all relative, isn’t it? Compared to some stars, our sun is down-right cold… Betelgeuse! Betelgeuse! Betelgeuse! So shouldn’t you be making fun of our sun because it’s not as hot, or larger or bright as other stars? It’s a quite non-descript, ordinary star. Or can I not appreciate it because it doth shine on our little planet, giving us warmth and photosynthesis and skin cancer. And at least it’s not WWE:RAW! ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/55 "2005-01-13T09:23:04Z")
ALW isn’t bad because he lacks skill or writes simple songs. He’s bad (on the whole) because of his lowbrow sensibilities. Showtunes are not symphonies, but they are still good art. Someone mentioned the blues; that can be good art too. Nor do I consider listening to Frank Loesser’s or Robert Johnson’s songs a “guilty pleasure.” They are masters in complete control of their craft. ALW’s songs simply exhibit poor, vulgar taste. Lowbrowness itself can be used to delicious effect when it is done right, so even this isn’t a sufficient condition to damn him. No, the real _thing_ about ALW is that his songs, while lowbrow and just pretty damn dumb, are always stretching beyond their reach for the deep meaning or pithy sentiment. A rap song that is down and dirty has no pretensions and can be enjoyed on those terms. “Music of the Night,” however, is going for… I don’t know what the fuck what. The music and lyrics in combination show the most distorted sense of what might be frightening, meaningful, tasteful. It’s Baroque bullshit. I think what infuriates us is this: that same bullshit music and lyrics appeal to people with poor taste, who are looking for a musical that shouts “Elegant!” and “Meaningful!” and think Webber provides it. It truly is the musical equivalent of a T. Kinkade painting on a person’s living room wall. They don’t fucking know any better and look like morons precisely because they THINK, CLAIM, and LOVINGLY COO that ALW’s and TK’s products are the real thing. It does NOT follow from that that people who listen to top-40 pop are equally moronic. Pop music often delivers the thrill of catchiness, and even not so rarely it can be art within its particular dimension. Further, most pop listeners aren’t thinking about it, aren’t worried about what is art and what isn’t. If anything, they probably assume (not quite correctly) that pop just isn’t as good as classical, or whatever, and they live with it. As for skill, ALW has the skill of writing a good, organic melody, a melody in which all the parts seem perfectly designed for each other. “Memory” is one such song. As a melody, it’s a masterpiece. The lyrics and method of delivery turn it into corny stuff, but it’s still something to hear. You put one song like that in a musical and you’re likely to have a hit. Of course, most of his songs are suckage through and through. I don’t find him to be consistently good at all. Sondheim has his own issues. He’s so brilliant that he hasn’t condescended to write a catchy tune since “Forum.” “Send in the Clowns” was lucky–it’s a subtle, sophisticated song that by accident had an unorthodox downtempo melody that just happend to have “It” (but I don’t think it has that total organic quality). ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/56 "2005-01-13T18:09:41Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I think what infuriates us is this: that same bullshit music and lyrics appeal to people with poor taste Can they also appeal to people with good taste? > [@](#): > > As for skill, ALW has the skill of writing a good, organic melody, a melody in which all the parts seem perfectly designed for each other. “Memory” is one such song. As a melody, it’s a masterpiece. The lyrics and method of delivery turn it into corny stuff, but it’s still something to hear. Of course, ALW didn’t have anything to do with the lyrics. And in fact, some of them were written by noted hack T S Eliot. Anyhow, I enjoy some ALW musicals, in particular **Jesus Christ Superstar** , which is probably one of my 10 favorite musicals, but not in my top 5. I also like **Cats** , **Phantom** and **Joseph** , but I’m really not familiar with any of his other work. ---
**Author:** ![Delly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Delly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delly)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/57 "2005-01-14T01:43:59Z")
Not to bring any additional attention to my previous post but I just wanted to apologise for it. I clearly wasnt thinking about what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/58 "2005-01-14T08:17:03Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] Can they also appeal to people with good taste? [quote] They can, Max. But I don’t think people with good taste are going to idolize _Phantom_ see the show 20 times, buy collectibles, etc. > [@](#): > > Of course, ALW didn’t have anything to do with the lyrics. And in fact, some of them were written by noted hack T S Eliot. It just so happens I am a big non-fan of that poet. The cat poems are extremely slight, and the rest of his work is just dreary. Not a hack, however. An ingenious self-promoter. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/59 "2005-01-14T09:12:18Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > It just so happens I am a big non-fan of that poet. The cat poems are extremely slight, and the rest of his work is just dreary. Not a hack, however. An ingenious self-promoter. No writer whose name is an anagram of “toilets” can be entirely bad. ---
**Author:** ![baronsabato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@baronsabato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baronsabato)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192/60 "2005-01-14T12:58:45Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Sondheim has his own issues. He’s so brilliant that he hasn’t condescended to write a catchy tune since “Forum.” “Send in the Clowns” was lucky–it’s a subtle, sophisticated song that by accident had an unorthodox downtempo melody that just happend to have “It” (but I don’t think it has that total organic quality). I don’t know about that. I found much of “A Little Night Music” catchy and “hummable”. At intermission, “Weekend in the Country” was definitely stuck in my head (I couldn’t get it out for a week). Not to mention “Merrily We Roll Along”. Quite a few catchy tunes in there as well. Come to think of it, I think a lot of Sondheim songs are catchy. For whatever reason, what qualifies as “catchy” differs person to person; I for one don’t find a single melody from “Cats” memorable at all, but I know people who just can’t seem to shake out “The Rum Tum Tugger”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-lloyd-webber-is-a-craptastic-hack/284192.md?page=4)