# Andrew Sullivan: beneath contempt or just delusional? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 28, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743 "2003-04-28T18:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/1 "2003-04-28T18:43:46Z")
While I applaud Andrew Sullivan for his occasional journalism (like exploding that phony Rolling Stone [“bug chasers”](http://www.salon.com/opinion/sullivan/2003/01/24/rolling/) story), more and more he’s coming off like a ranting nitwit and a complete hypocrite. A few weeks back he [blasted](http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/883/883_sullivan.asp) the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force for taking an anti-war position. He’s assuredly entitled to disagree with NGLTF’s position (he does) but he specifically said that they shouldn’t have taken any position because “war is not a gay issue.” > [@](#): > > Let’s concede for a moment that there are honest and civil disagreements about the war among gay men and women. The salient question is, Regardless of what you think about the coming war, why on earth should a gay group take this issue on? Now, a mere two months later, Sullivan is trying to [drum up support among gay people](http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/888/888_sullivan.asp) for the war by telling horror stories about gay people living in Muslim-controlled territory. Many many problems with this. First, he’s (I’ll be charitable here) mischaracterizing people opposed to the war as “[siding] with the dictators who oppress [gays].” Wait, forget being charitable. This isn’t a simple mischaracterization. It’s a flat-out filthy lie, and one that he and too many other right-wingers have been telling for too long. He’s supposed to be a bright boy (despite his penchant in engaging in [unsafe sex](http://milkyloads.tripod.com/) and making excuses for it) so he really ought to know that there’s a difference between opposing a war and supporting a dictator. But in his world there is no “oppose war.” There is support war or support, “actively or passively,” Saddam Hussein’s regime. What’s telling about Sullivan’s column is that he doesn’t specifically limit it to the current war in Iraq. He doesn’t name the “oppressive Mideast dictatorship” at all, so his unqualified support of war would equally apply to the Bushies’ next adventure in the region. Syria, anyone? Or maybe Palestine (which he does cite as oppressive but not a dictatorship)? Second, given that his comments are coming less than a week after Rick Santorum’s anti-gay comments and the White House’s support for him, it is a little bit sick for Sullivan to imply that concern for the oppression of Iraqi gays was in any way the motive behind this war. He’s deluding himself if he thinks that anyone in the Bush administration had the oppression of gay people in Iraq even wander across their mind while plotting out war strategy. Finally, if war is not a gay issue, Sullivan is dead wrong to use his position as a gay journalist writing in a gay magazine and invoking gay oppression to justify the war. I guess it’s only wrong to play the gay card if you disagree with his self-important delusional stance. Fucker. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/2 "2003-04-28T19:00:50Z")
Sullivan apparently has a reputation as a heavy drinker _even by the standards of the Washington press corps._ Instead of the options in the thread title, I’d vote for “nasty drunk”. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/3 "2003-04-28T23:35:15Z")
Wow, **Elvis**. You honestly don’t care even a bit of an iota of a whit whether the shit that you spread has even a modicum of truth to it, do you? You are a disgusting, vile, evil human being and ignorance personified. I’m ashamed to share a phylum with you, let alone a species. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/4 "2003-04-29T00:11:44Z")
**Otto** , have a little compassion towards “internalized homophobia”, willya? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/5 "2003-04-29T00:14:45Z")
Elvis’ comments weren’t nearly as cheap (and irrelevant) a shot as: > [@](#): > > (despite his penchant in engaging in unsafe sex and making excuses for it) ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/6 "2003-04-29T01:24:54Z")
Is Sullivan really HIV-positive, as the site Otto linked to says? I’ve never heard that claim about Sullivan. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/7 "2003-04-29T01:32:33Z")
Yep. He was diagnosed in 1993. He was also famously caught placing a personal ad looking for barebackers; another columnist made an issue of it to highlight what he felt was Sullivan’s hypocrisy on sexual issues. **ArchiveGuy** has somthing of a point – I’m not a huge fan of bringing it up when it’s not relevant. But it does have the distinction of being actually, verifiably true and is arguably relevant when discussing his stance on matters sexual. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/8 "2003-04-29T01:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Is Sullivan really HIV-positive…? Yes. I’ve been reading his blog for about a year. He refers to his illness occasionally. He also has a beagle, so lay the fuck off. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/9 "2003-04-29T01:47:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > First, he’s (I’ll be charitable here) mischaracterizing people opposed to the war as “[siding] with the dictators who oppress [gays].” …There is support war or support, “actively or passively,” Saddam Hussein’s regime. We debated this point in GD. Since then, we have found out that anti-war leader and Member of Parliament George Galloway really was supporting Saddam, for money. We have learned that France was supporting Saddam, by providing secret information. At the very least, without the war, Saddam would have remained in power. > [@](#): > > What’s telling about Sullivan’s column is that he doesn’t specifically limit it to the current war in Iraq. He doesn’t name the “oppressive Mideast dictatorship” at all, so his unqualified support of war would equally apply to the Bushies’ next adventure in the region. Syria, anyone? Or maybe Palestine (which he does cite as oppressive but not a dictatorship)? [The Palestinian Authority treats gays hideously](http://cms.hillel.org/Hillel/Israel/News+and+Opinion/Spotlight/Gay+Palestinians+Suffer+Under+Arafat.htm), according to the New Republic. > [@](#): > > It is not widely known that, along with its war against Israel, the Palestinian Authority is conducting a vicious campaign against its own homosexual population. The New Republic, in its Aug. 19 issue, exposed hideous human rights violations by the Palestinian Authority, which employs special police squads to capture men who have sex with each other. The lucky ones are forced to stand in sewage water up to their necks or lie in dark cells infested with insects; others are simply starved to death. > > These horrific crimes have motivated hundreds of Palestinian homosexuals to flee to Israel. To be sure, these people have not become Zionists. But at the end of day, they know that “in Tel Aviv no one cares if you’re gay,” as one Palestinian who fled to Israel said, while in Palestinian Gaza, “the police will kill me, unless my father gets to me first.” Does it make sense for a gay organization to side with the Palestinian Authority? > [@](#): > > Second…it’s a little bit sick for Sullivan to imply that concern for the oppression of Iraqi gays was in any way the motive behind this war. He didn’t say that. > [@](#): > > Finally, if war is not a gay issue, Sullivan is dead wrong to use his position as a gay journalist writing in a gay magazine and invoking gay oppression to justify the war. The article criticizes the political stands taken by a particular gay organization, so it’s appropriate for a gay magazine. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/10 "2003-04-29T01:47:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > First, he’s (I’ll be charitable here) mischaracterizing people opposed to the war as “[siding] with the dictators who oppress [gays].” …There is support war or support, “actively or passively,” Saddam Hussein’s regime. We debated this point in GD. Since then, we have found out that anti-war leader and Member of Parliament George Galloway really was supporting Saddam, for money. We have learned that France was supporting Saddam, by providing secret information. At the very least, without the war, Saddam would have remained in power. > [@](#): > > What’s telling about Sullivan’s column is that he doesn’t specifically limit it to the current war in Iraq. He doesn’t name the “oppressive Mideast dictatorship” at all, so his unqualified support of war would equally apply to the Bushies’ next adventure in the region. Syria, anyone? Or maybe Palestine (which he does cite as oppressive but not a dictatorship)? [The Palestinian Authority treats gays hideously](http://cms.hillel.org/Hillel/Israel/News+and+Opinion/Spotlight/Gay+Palestinians+Suffer+Under+Arafat.htm), according to the New Republic. > [@](#): > > It is not widely known that, along with its war against Israel, the Palestinian Authority is conducting a vicious campaign against its own homosexual population. The New Republic, in its Aug. 19 issue, exposed hideous human rights violations by the Palestinian Authority, which employs special police squads to capture men who have sex with each other. The lucky ones are forced to stand in sewage water up to their necks or lie in dark cells infested with insects; others are simply starved to death. > > These horrific crimes have motivated hundreds of Palestinian homosexuals to flee to Israel. To be sure, these people have not become Zionists. But at the end of day, they know that “in Tel Aviv no one cares if you’re gay,” as one Palestinian who fled to Israel said, while in Palestinian Gaza, “the police will kill me, unless my father gets to me first.” Does it make sense for a gay organization to side with the Palestinian Authority? > [@](#): > > Second…it’s a little bit sick for Sullivan to imply that concern for the oppression of Iraqi gays was in any way the motive behind this war. He didn’t say that. > [@](#): > > Finally, if war is not a gay issue, Sullivan is dead wrong to use his position as a gay journalist writing in a gay magazine and invoking gay oppression to justify the war. The article criticizes the political stands taken by a particular gay organization, so it’s appropriate for a gay magazine. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/11 "2003-04-29T02:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > We debated this point in GD. Since then, we have found out that anti-war leader and Member of Parliament George Galloway really was supporting Saddam, for money. We have learned that France was supporting Saddam, by providing secret information. At the very least, without the war, Saddam would have remained in power. So that’s one person out of millions, one nation out of dozens. It’s unreasonable at best and a lie at worst to claim that the motive of the majority or even a significant minority of those opposed to the war were supporting Hussein either actively or passively. > [@](#): > > Does it make sense for a gay organization to side with the Palestinian Authority? The question strikes me as irrelevant. > [@](#): > > He didn’t say that. He _implied_ it, which is exactly what I said. > [@](#): > > The article criticizes the political stands taken by a particular gay organization, so it’s appropriate for a gay magazine. According to Sullivan, “war is not a gay issue.” Unless he’s the one who wants to talk about it and use homosexuality as the hook on which to hang support for the war. Either it’s not a gay issue in which case he has no business writing the second article, or it is a gay issue in which case he owes NGLTF an apology for the first article. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/12 "2003-04-29T02:17:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Since then, we have found out that anti-war leader and Member of Parliament George Galloway really was supporting Saddam, for money. May I ask for a cite on this? Is it in GD? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/13 "2003-04-29T02:26:47Z")
Never mind - I found it in GD. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/14 "2003-04-29T02:28:00Z")
Hmmn. [http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/883/883\_sullivan.asp](http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/883/883_sullivan.asp) Lookee here. From the above link, we have the commentary: _War isn’t a gay issue_. Now, when was this? **February 18, 2003** > [@](#): > > What should a gay activist group do? Here’s a great example: You can organize, protest, raise money, and engage the public to protect civil rights laws protecting homosexuals. That’s exactly what the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force did in Florida’s Miami-Dade County last fall, helping to eke out an lectoral victory on a treacherous civil rights issue. And they deserve great credit for their hard work. > > Now, for the harder part: What should a gay activist group not do? Here’s another great example: Go out on a limb on a nongay topic, alienate large numbers of people you need to persuade, divide the gay population unnecessarily, and devote energy and resources to a subject far, far away from the issue of gay equality. And that’s exactly what NGLTF has also done by signing on to a dumb and disingenuous coalition to oppose war against Saddam Hussein’s brutal and dangerous dictatorship. [http://content.gay.com/channels/news/sullivan\_war.html](http://content.gay.com/channels/news/sullivan_war.html) Now, while this isn’t dated… > [@](#): > > To respond to that threat by cautioning peace or surrender or equivocation is to appease men who would destroy every last vestige of gay America if they could. Gay Americans should not merely support this war as a matter of patriotism and pride; they should support it because the enemy sees us as one of their first targets for destruction. These maniacs despise our freedom; they loathe our diversity; they have contempt for our culture. There is no gray here. There is simply a choice: to cower and run in fear of these monsters or to stand up with every other segment of this country - of every race and creed and gender and sexual orientation - and defeat these messengers of hate in the hope of a brighter, integrated day. He’s still the same two faced pig who spoke about safe-sex out of one side of his mouth while looking for barebacking daddies with the other. He’s looking fo his “place at he table” in the same toadying way as ever. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/15 "2003-04-29T02:32:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **December** : Does it make sense for a gay organization to side with the Palestinian Authority? > > **Otto** : The question strikes me as irrelevant. You forget, in **December** ’s world everything reduces to one of two questions: (1) What is the person/group/concept under discussion’s stance vis-a-vis the policies of President George W. Bush, and (2) What is the person/group/concept under discussion’s stance vis-a-vis the State of Israel and its present government (which are assumed to be synonymous)? It makes for a very neat and clearcut world: everything from the use of the _filioque_ in the Nicene creed to the state of the Borneo ecology can be judged by reference to these two simple criteria. I find Andrew, as a gay conservative, to often be interesting reading, though more often he seems to be engaged in a circuitous justification of a stance he seems to feel forced into by the nature of his sexuality and his politics. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/16 "2003-04-29T03:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > You forget, in **December** ’s world everything reduces to one of two questions: The OP said, “He [Sullivan] doesn’t name the “oppressive Mideast dictatorship” at all…maybe Palestine (which he does cite as oppressive but not a dictatorship)” So, a description of the PA’s atrocious treatment of gays was germane to **Otto’s** point. One can make a good case that a gay organization shouldn’t take a stand at all between Israel and the PA. There are plenty of issues to work on that specifically involve gay themes. But if they do decide to get involved, it seems odd for them to favor the side that tortures gays. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/17 "2003-04-29T03:16:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **We debated this point in GD. Since then, we have found out that anti-war leader and Member of Parliament George Galloway really was supporting Saddam, for money. We have learned that France was supporting Saddam, by providing secret information. At the very least, without the war, Saddam would have remained in power** I’m incredibly tired of hearing this blatantly false dichotomy. It presupposes that there are only two sides to this conflict: Either one must support a rogue American invasion of a sovereign nation, or one must support the tyrannical regime of that sovereign nation. That is demonstrably false. Sadaam’s removal from power was a good thing for Iraq; however, I would have preferred that it come from a concerted effort from the United Nations. As a gay man who emphatically does not support this war, this way, I find Mr Sullivan’s characterization insulting. I also think that being gay has less than nothing to do with being either pro- or anti-war, and I don’t see why he feels the need to speak out for the gay community on an issue that does not concern us _as a gay community_ any more than increasing aid to Venezuela would. Sorry that this is not directly on point, but I grow weary of **december’s** drive-by posts that completely miss the point of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/18 "2003-04-29T03:34:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Sorry that this is not directly on point, but I grow weary of december’s drive-by posts that completely miss the point of the thread. Rest assured, you’re not alone. You’re SO not alone. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/19 "2003-04-29T03:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*One can make a good case that a gay organization shouldn’t take a stand at all between Israel and the PA. There are plenty of issues to work on that specifically involve gay themes. But if they do decide to get involved, it seems odd for them to favor the side that tortures gays. \*\* Sullivan specifically attacked the NGLTF. Can you find me a cite on the [NGLTF web site](http://www.ngltf.org/) indicating that the NGLTF has taken a position in support of the Palestinian Authority? Can you find me a cite anywhere that indicates NGLTF favors torturing gay people? Sullivan’s criticism of NGLTF was based on its joining a coalition known as “Win Without War.” [Here](http://www.ngltf.org/search/results.cfm) are all of the statements NGLTF has released to date in reference to this coalition, whose founding members include: > [@](#): > > NAACP; the National Organization for Women; Move On; the Sierra Club; the National Council of Churches; Business Leaders for Sensible Priorities; Working Assets; the Leadership Conference of Women Religious; Physicians for Social Responsibility; the Rainbow Push Coalition; and Women’s Action for New Directions. The Win Without War mission statement is > [@](#): > > We are patriotic Americans who share the belief that Saddam Hussein cannot be allowed to possess weapons of mass destruction. We support rigorous UN weapons inspections to assure Iraq’s effective disarmament. We believe that a preemptive military invasion of Iraq will harm American national interests. Unprovoked war will increase human suffering, arouse animosity toward our country, increase the likelihood of terrorist attacks, damage the economy and undermine our moral standing in the world. It will make us less, not more, secure. We reject the doctrine – a reversal of long-held American tradition – that our country, alone, has the right to launch first-strike attacks. America is not that kind of country. We can achieve the valid U.S. and UN objective of disarming Saddam Hussein through legal diplomatic means. There is no need for war. Let us instead devote our resources to improving the security and well being of people here at home and around the world. As the Bush Administration prepares for battle, religious, civil rights and citizen organizations have banded together to promote disarming Iraq without war. Nowhere do I see support, explicit or implicit, for Saddam Hussein or the palestinian Authority. I do not know the position on the PA of every founding member of Win Without War, nor are those positions relevant to a criticism of NGLTF’s decision to oppose war with Iraq. Oddly, Sullivan has not to my knowledge broadsided the Log Cabin Republicans (who support the war). Another example of how war is a gay issue as long as you’re on his side. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743/20 "2003-04-29T04:09:36Z")
I’m glad that Andrew has had a turnabout on the issue. If he’s now for supporting the overthrow of a regime that’s oppressive to homosexuals, that means he’ll be campaigning against the GOP in the next election. ## Peace. Yeah, not likely. Yeah, hypocritical. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andrew-sullivan-beneath-contempt-or-just-delusional/171743.md?page=2)