# Andros-your a sour cream puff...Grienspace **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2000, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458 "2000-12-28T00:33:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/41 "2001-01-02T20:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > > Well you have entertained me Android. But just because I caught you with your pants down, jerking off instead of reading David’s cite first is no reason to blow a gasket. A little sense of humour please. I called you a sour cream puff, not the Anti-Christ. \*\* I’m not sure how you caught **andros** with his pants down, but… did you just admit by saying “a little sense of humor please,” that this whole thing is just a jape? I truly hope it is–for our sakes, not yours. (BTW: he really _is_ the Anti-Christ. but that’s another story) ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/42 "2001-01-02T20:59:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Just recently, I visited a website listing the 10 most atheist countries in the world. East Germany was at the top, all by itself at 80%. Decades under two different atheist regimes might have had a lot to do with it. The other ex-communist countries had much lower rates of atheism. Is it just me, or has no one yet pointed out the tiny fact that **East Germany isn’t a freaking country**?!? Just askin’. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/43 "2001-01-02T21:16:02Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by blessedwolf \* I’m not sure how you caught **andros** with his pants down, but…/ [quote] Andros asked me to provide a source for one of my quotes which was already in the record of this debate. He tried to worm his way out by claiming he was testing me:D > [@](#): > > did you just admit by saying “a little sense of humor please,” that this whole thing is just a jape? I truly hope it is–for our sakes, not yours. Not entirely, but come-on, look at the title. I was looking for a little fun one on one tussle with an intellectual lightweight, and the full weight of SD veterans of theistic discussion including a good number of moderators have come down on me. I am enjoying myself, but I don’t seem to have anyone else on my team to share with me. You try and present your self in debate at a biblestudy. Can you see some humour in that? The whole premise of the opening post in Great Debates was taken a lot more seriously than I had intended as well, and I don’t hold my self entirely blameless. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/44 "2001-01-02T21:29:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > \*\*Is it just me, or has no one yet pointed out the tiny fact that **East Germany isn’t a freaking country**?!? > Just askin’. \*\* Who said it is a country? Yes its just you.It certainly is a distinct region of Germany as East L.A. is of los Angeles. And certainly was a country until fairly recently in historical terms. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/45 "2001-01-02T21:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > > Not entirely, but come-on, look at the title. I was looking for a little fun one on one tussle with an intellectual lightweight, and the full weight of SD veterans of theistic discussion including a good number of moderators have come down on me. I am enjoying myself, but I don’t seem to have anyone else on my team to share with me. You try and present your self in debate at a biblestudy. Can you see some humour in that? The whole premise of the opening post in Great Debates was taken a lot more seriously than I had intended as well, and I don’t hold my self entirely blameless. \*\* An intellectual lightweight? **Now** who’s being amusing? \*\* andros \*\* is an intellectual Mike Tyson–big and mean and hard to defeat…and he’ll talk your ear off. The reason the full weight of SD veterans and a good number of moderators have come down on you is because you haven’t proven any points. All atheists are Caucasian? puh-leeze! All atheistic cultures oppress their theistic members? uh-huh. Perhaps the reason you have nobody on your team is because nobody likes the “can’t you see that I’m the only one who’s right around here?” attitude you’ve put forth. ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/46 "2001-01-02T21:44:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Just recently, I visited a website listing **the 10 most atheist countries in the world. East Germany was at the top** , all by itself at 80%. Decades under two different atheist regimes might have had a lot to do with it. The other ex-communist countries had much lower rates of atheism. > [@](#): > > Who said it is a country? _You_ did, moron! Not only do you consistently fail to comprehend the most basic lessons patiently taught to you by the kindest, most knowledgeable of dopers, but also you fail to comprehend even the things that you have posted yourself. What the fuck? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/47 "2001-01-02T22:12:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tymp \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Who said it is a country? > > _You_ did, moron! Not only do you consistently fail to comprehend the most basic lessons patiently taught to you by the kindest, most knowledgeable of dopers, but also you fail to comprehend even the things that you have posted yourself. > > What the fuck? > > \*\* Oh please, relax and get a life. The Roman Empire is the Roman Empire even if it doesn’t exist. If the point is so important to you to ellicit such a vituperative and childish response then I will concede that I referred to a web site that listed East Germany as a country. I didn’t say that your mother wears army shoes! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/48 "2001-01-02T22:23:32Z")
> [@](#): > > The Roman Empire is the Roman Empire even if it doesn’t exist. " . . . and East is East and West is West. And if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like rhubarb than prunes do." Thanks for a great future sig line though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/49 "2001-01-02T23:22:55Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by blessedwolf \* … you haven’t proven any points. All atheists are Caucasian? puh-leeze! All atheistic cultures oppress their theistic members? uh-huh./ [quote] I only referred to communist Soviet Union, communist China, and nazi Germany,referring specifically to judeo-christian persecution. Atheist regimes not atheist cultures. Not **all** but just those three regimes. Please find where I referred to persecuting **atheist cultures** > [@](#): > > Perhaps the reason you have nobody on your team is because nobody likes the “can’t you see that I’m the only one who’s right around here?” attitude you’ve put forth. \*\* It occurs to me that in any debate, one has to defend their position vigorously.Some of my opponents have done so honourably and with distinction. Please do not regard my tenaciousness as representative of the attitude you accuse me of. Your previous apology suggests to me that you are a mature individual, and I understand that the entire context of this thread and the corresponding great debate is getting convoluted with side issues, particularly my character,resulting in much confusion as to the actual meaning and intent of any given phrase. I have apologized and I have acknowledged excellent counterpoints and opposing positions. It may be you haven’t been to the corresponding great debate, but anyone who thinks I have an unhealthy self-consumed attitude bereft of considering the validity of other opinions is merely listening to the repetative charges.Ryan, said I believe that some people believe that if you repeat a lie enough times, then people will believe you. Now my question to you “can you imagine yourself at a bible study group?” wasn’t entirely rhetorical.Would you expect a better reception there espousing atheist views? Now I didn’t say you were an atheist!🙂 * * * I’ll kill them with my love ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/50 "2001-01-02T23:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > East Germany was at the top, all by itself at 80%. Decades under two different atheist regimes might have had a lot to do with it. And many countries which are 80% or 90% Christian now are the way they are because they spent not decades but centuries under officially Christian regimes of a variously oppressive nature. It’s still only a fairly recent development in the history of Christianity that religion has come to be seen as a personal and voluntary matter. Of course, the past injustices of Christians in no way excuse the injustices of non-Christians in the more recent past. I’d also point out that, especially in this discussion, “atheism” is being used in a way that is more akin to “monotheism” than it is to Christianity. Blaming Secular Humanists for the crimes of Marxist-Leninists makes about as much sense as blaming Southern Baptists for the crimes of the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2001, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/51 "2001-01-02T23:34:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Now my question to you “can you imagine yourself at a bible study group?” wasn’t entirely rhetorical.Would you expect a better reception there espousing atheist views? Now I didn’t say you were an atheist! Except that not everyone on this board is an atheist (or a Christian), although you do seem to have drawn this conclusion. And this despite our having pointed out that there are several intelligent Christians, like **Polycarp** or **Jodi** _et al_ who post far more regularly on this board than I do. [sub]ianac. ia also naa[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/52 "2001-01-03T00:43:15Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* \*\* [quote It’s still only a fairly recent development in the history of Christianity that religion has come to be seen as a personal and voluntary matter.[/quote] Actually, for the first several hundred years in the history of christianity, religion was a personal and voluntary matter. It wasn’t until the state became involved under Constantine that Christianity became a political tool of the state to be defended by bloodshed. > [@](#): > > I’d also point out that, especially in this discussion, “atheism” is being used in a way that is more akin to “monotheism” than it is to Christianity. Blaming Secular Humanists for the crimes of Marxist-Leninists makes about as much sense as blaming Southern Baptists for the crimes of the Taliban. \*\* Atheism akin to monotheism? I’m afraid you lost me. Do you think I’m blaming all atheists for the crimes of certain atheists in power? No wonder everyone here hates me. All along the absurdity of tagging all of Christendom with the crimes of the past has irked me.If thats what a lot of the people who attacked me believe,that I am attacking them as atheists or non believers by including them with the atheist marxist-leninist crimes then they are mistaken. As far as I’m concerned, anytime a particular philosophy/religion becomes a state imperative, it becomes a tool of the state and thus becomes corrupted. I don’t believe a purely atheist philosophy does anyone any physical harm. As a state tool, however it has been used to wipe out the religion of the masses to be replaced by an other philosophy.I’m all for separation of church and state. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/53 "2001-01-03T00:52:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Atheism akin to monotheism? I’m afraid you lost me. In that “monotheist” and “atheist” are both too broad to make meaningful generalizations about when discussing, say, morality. Are “monotheists” or “atheists” good or evil? Which monotheists and which atheists? I’d have thought my line about Secular Humanists and Marxist-Leninists vs. Southern Baptists and the Taliban would have made that clear. > [@](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, anytime a particular philosophy/religion becomes a state imperative, it becomes a tool of the state and thus becomes corrupted. A statement from grienspace I agree with wholeheartedly…and to think, I used to scoff at all those premillennialists who say the end of the world must be near. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/54 "2001-01-03T01:47:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dogsbody \* > > Except that not everyone on this board is an atheist (or a Christian), although you do seem to have drawn this conclusion. And this despite our having pointed out that there are several intelligent Christians, like **Polycarp** or **Jodi** _et al_ who post far more regularly on this board than I do. > > [sub]ianac. ia also naa[/sub] \*\* Hello dogsbody, and I thought I wouldn’t hear from you again. Your call regarding DNFTT led me to believe you would not participate. Anyway, welcome. I get around enough to know that this particular thread encompasses a larger percentage of atheists than would otherwise be representative of the Straight Dope. Offhand, other than Gaudere and the MEBuckner, I can’t be sure of who exactly is an atheist and I really don’t care. People have classified themselves as Deists and Theists Secular Humanists,Materialists Unitarians and what have you.I haven’t heard of any Polytheists though. Polycarp is a Christian who I initially misunderstood, and I don’t remember Jodi at the moment. One needs to be careful in labeling individuals and if I have mislabeled any one, I apologize.I know you attended a Lutheran college, but that doesn’t mean you are a Christian. Its been so long now, but I never intended for this thread or the corresponding thread in GD to be a Christian vs. Atheist debate. In answering charges and reasonable counterpoints the main issue seems to be my character and the manner in which I present myself. I am cursed by Andros’s statement which precipitated this thread, and thus I type here constantly defending myself. I had tried to pull out of this debate and let it rest.Very few posts have been supportive, and as a result I entertained the fantasy of many of my opponents defending their views in a bible discussion group. There is no point for other Christians to get involved because there are no important issues for them to participate in. At least 90% of Christendom would label my views as heretical anyway. But did I say there were no Christians on this board? I don’t think so. Anyway I’m glad to clear up your confusion with regard to my comprehension of peoples atheism/Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/55 "2001-01-03T01:54:15Z")
> [@](#): > > No wonder everyone here hates me. Naa, we hate you because you’re an idiot and have no evidence to back up any of your outrageous assumptions. (“All atheists are Caucasian.” “Never mind, I meant that they all are anti-Christian.” “David B debates like a high school lunch debater.”) ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/56 "2001-01-03T02:01:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\*_loads of quotes deleted to keep things readable_ > I responded to your earlier question , but you have yet to respond to mine. Lets have it first. \*\* Sure, you responded to my question by saying, basically: _“You misunderstood me. Now prove **your** point.”_ The fact is that I don’t _have_ a point, per se (well, I might have, but it’s immaterial at this point wheter I have one or not). I have a problem with your initial assertion, and I dare you to substantiate it with some evidence. _“You got it wrong, now give **ME** evidence”_ is not a valid reply in such a case. Look at the first post in this thread. It’s yours. That’s why people are asking you to back things up. It’s the way of the world. At least, it **is** on the Straight Dope. Might as well get used to it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/57 "2001-01-03T03:21:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jello \* > > Naa, we hate you because you’re an idiot and have no evidence to back up any of your outrageous assumptions. (“All atheists are Caucasian.” “Never mind, I meant that they all are anti-Christian.” “David B debates like a high school lunch debater.”) \*\* Ah Jello, but at least I think your wonderful, articulate, and erudite. Let me congratulate you in helping me realize the error of my ways. Idiots should be burned at the stake, so please forgive me for causing you to hate. Forgive me for causing you to try and save a wretched soul like me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/58 "2001-01-03T04:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > > \*\*_loads of quotes deleted to keep things readable_ > > I responded to your earlier question , but you have yet to respond to mine. Lets have it first. \*\* > > Sure, you responded to my question by saying, basically: _“You misunderstood me. Now prove **your** point.”_ > > The fact is that I don’t _have_ a point, per se (well, I might have, but it’s immaterial at this point wheter I have one or not). What a weasel. I’ll ask you again. Where did church and state combine in a crime against humanity (in the 20th century). In any case I’ll answer your question. I can think of no instance where **in the explicit name of atheism** a crime of humanity occured. Come to think of it, I can’t think of any historically significant event that occured in the explicit name of atheism. > [@](#): > > I have a problem with your initial assertion, and I dare you to substantiate it with some evidence. > _“You got it wrong, now give **ME** evidence”_ is not a valid reply in such a case. > > Look at the first post in this thread. It’s yours. That’s why people are asking you to back things up. It’s the way of the world. At least, it **is** on the Straight Dope. Might as well get used to it. \*\* Get your finger out of the dyke:D. I have no problem with people requesting clarifications and substantiations. I have no problem with that at all. I do expect reciprocation which in this case has not been forthcoming. As far as I’m concerned, I have conceded where appropriate and appropriately defended any other assertions I have made so far. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/59 "2001-01-03T04:11:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > Your misquotes and mischaracterizations of my statements and off the wall comments serve no purpose other than to confuse everyone.But don’t feel bad. Andros thinks your approach is scholarly. You **really** like making claims without any support, don’t you? > [@](#): > > Ryan, said I believe that some people believe that if you repeat a lie enough times, then people will believe you. No I didn’t. > [@](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, anytime a particular philosophy/religion becomes a state imperative, it becomes a tool of the state and thus becomes corrupted. Singling out a particular philosophy will cause you to be perceived as slamming that philosophy, and rightly so. Suppose I were to say “Ignorant blacks are a serious problem in this country”. The sensible inferrence from this is that I’m racist. Now, suppose I say “But I think that ignorance in any race is serious problem.” Well then, that’s what I should have said in the beginning. By singling out blacks, I’m expressing a racist attitude. Furthermore, your request for an example of Church and State committing a violation of human rights in this century implied that you did not believe that any such event occurred. If you still want such examples, the Catholic Church in Ireland put children from unwed mothers up for aboption without the mothers’ permission. And more recently, Muslim extremists in Afghanistan prohibited females from receiving medical care from males, and prohibited females from being doctors, condemming hundreds of females to death. And BTW, since you seem to consider any example from a previous century to be invalid, as of yesterday all of your examples are invalid, but mine is valid (this is still going on). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/60 "2001-01-03T04:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I never intended for this thread or the corresponding thread in GD to be a Christian vs. Atheist debate Well, no, actually. Let’s now be disingenuous–you started _this_ thread, at least, to call me a liar and a coward. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458.md?page=4)