# Andros-your a sour cream puff...Grienspace **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2000, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458 "2000-12-28T00:33:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/61 "2001-01-03T04:59:14Z")
Er, let’s **not** be disingenuous, rather. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/62 "2001-01-03T05:11:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > > Your misquotes and mischaracterizations of my statements and off the wall comments serve no purpose other than to confuse everyone.But don’t feel bad. Andros thinks your approach is scholarly. > > You **really** like making claims without any support, don’t you? Everytime or rather often when you paraphrase my statements I perceive that you are deliberately reading into my posts the most negative connotation that you can render in order to perpetuate the rant of unsubstantiation.Coldfire claims that denial is no legitimate defense in this forum and if that is the case, then I have no defense for your charges. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Ryan, said I believe that some people believe that if you repeat a lie enough times, then people will believe you. > > No I didn’t. **denial,denial,denial** Unfortunate placement and ommission of commas. Should read “Ryan said, I believe, that some …”. I was referring to your putdown of Polycarp.Sorry for the misquote. > [@](#): > > Singling out a particular philosophy will cause you to be perceived as slamming that philosophy, and rightly so. Suppose I were to say “Ignorant blacks are a serious problem in this country”. The sensible inferrence from this is that I’m racist. Do you mean like when christianity gets singled out so often? > [@](#): > > . Furthermore, your request for an example of Church and State committing a violation of human rights in this century implied that you did not believe that any such event occurred. > > If you still want such examples, the Catholic Church in Ireland put children from unwed mothers up for aboption without the mothers’ permission. Not a valid point. The church perhaps but not the state. furthermore this is not a crime against humanity.This isn’t even murder. > [@](#): > > And more recently, Muslim extremists in Afghanistan prohibited females from receiving medical care from males, and prohibited females from being doctors, condemming hundreds of females to death. Bravo, I concede on that point. Islam is not exactly the church, normally a Christian entity, but clearly justified by the modern usage of the phrase “church and state”. > [@](#): > > And BTW, since you seem to consider any example from a previous century to be invalid, as of yesterday all of your examples are invalid, but mine is valid (this is still going on). Wait a minute here! you are misrepresenting me again in furtherance to your position. As someone said earlier, West is West and I say the 20th century is still the 20th century. I have never used the phrase **previous century** in this forum.The validity of my previous examples remain intact. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/63 "2001-01-03T05:53:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > I never intended for this thread or the corresponding thread in GD to be a Christian vs. Atheist debate > > Well, no, actually. Let’s not be disingenuous–you started _this_ thread, at least, to call me a liar and a coward. \*\* Disingenuous. I had to look it up. Hmmm a nice way to call me a liar, that is lacking in candor. Oh well, but the fact that you have finally acknowledged my opening charges, allows me to relent. Bullshiter and liar were terms used in response to your mischaracterization of my opening post as pontification. The term coward was used since your criticism that I quoted was put forth after I said I had withdrawn from the debate. I have rarely referred to anyone in those terms, but I thought I could take licence wrt the nature of the Pit and yet not severely offend anyone. I wanted to have a little fun and have a pit experience. I didn’t expect the acrimony to go on forever. I don’t know you all that well, but in light of the results I wish I never got into it. Suffice to say I feel like Pandora. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/64 "2001-01-03T06:04:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know you all that well, but in light of the results I wish I never got into it. Suffice to say I feel like Pandora. Whatever. I suppose that’s a close as I’ll get to an apology. But it’s worth mentioning that your choice to oversimplify “being disingenuous” into “lying” might explain some of the communication difficulties you’re experiencing 'round these parts. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/65 "2001-01-03T06:06:26Z")
Oh, and it’s difficult to call someone a liar and a coward without offending them. Possible, but difficult. Fortuntely, I couldn’t care less, and so take no offense. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/66 "2001-01-03T09:09:11Z")
Andros discovered that grienspace had not actually read David’s cite about Hitler, and how does grienspace defend himself? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\*Well you have entertained me Android. But just because I caught you with your pants down, jerking off instead of reading David’s cite first is no reason to blow a gasket. \*\* How does _that_ compute? Of course, grienspace’s whole argument is ridiculous. Grienspace maintains that Nazism was atheistic- even though the SS had “God is with us” written on their fricken belt buckles? Yeah, right- and the hymn “Glory to God in the Highest”? That’s sung by Shintoists, right? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/67 "2001-01-03T09:14:50Z")
A bit of interesting info from: [http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic\_conf.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_conf.htm) > [@](#): > > Jonesboro AR: In the early 1990’s there was an attempted multiple murder by stoning. This happened during a march which involved many local Wiccans. The demonstration had been organized to promote religious tolerance and freedom in the area. One or more local ministers had preached that in Bible times, the people knew how to handle individuals of other religions - they stoned them to death. A prominent conservative Christian teleminister had arranged to buss fellow Christians to the march site. They emerged from the bus – many carrying rocks. Numerous injuries and deaths would probably have resulted, if it were not for the prompt, combined action of over 5 area police forces. They formed a protective circle around the marchers. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/68 "2001-01-03T10:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > What a weasel. Well, _fuck_ that. A weasel? How can I be a weasel? For _not substantiating_ a claim I did not make? You’re a piece of work, alright. > [@](#): > > I’ll ask you again. Where did church and state combine in a crime against humanity (in the 20th century). [ul][li]On numerous occasions;[/li][li]Look it up yourself. I’m not the one laying down ridiciulous claims here.[/ul][/li]This is what I originally said: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > > I’m sorry, but you cannot deny the Holocaust under Nazism. You cannot deny the pogroms under Stalin. > > Are you seriously suggesting that it is impossible to come up with horrific things acted out under a “Christian” government (whatever that is. It’s not like all Nazis were atheists.) in the 20th century? In other words, I thought you were unclear, and using dogmatic implications. Hence my request for a clarification. Somehow, you read some sort of claim into that. There wasn’t one, other than an implicit _“don’t polarise the discussion, you’re gonna make yourself look stupid”_. Obviously, that was bound to happen no matter what. > [@](#): > > In any case I’ll answer your question. I can think of no instance where **in the explicit name of atheism** a crime of humanity occured. > Come to think of it, I can’t think of any historically significant event that occured in the explicit name of atheism. **Thank you.** You’ve just annihilated your entire range of arguments so far. But I’m sure you see it otherwise… This statement reduces your original claim to **“Sometimes when bad things happen, they happen in societies that have a separation of church and state, or they happen in societies where religion does not play an active roll altogether”**. To which the scientific answer is: **"Well, _duh_."** > [@](#): > > Get your finger out of the dyke:D. I have no problem with people requesting clarifications and substantiations. I have no problem with that at all. I do expect reciprocation which in this case has not been forthcoming. Reciprocation (by means of substantiation) can only be expected when someone weighs in with a claim of his own. This was not the case. > [@](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, I have conceded where appropriate and appropriately defended any other assertions I have made so far. At this stage, you basically have admitted that your initial implication that **non-religious governments** and **crimes against humanity** are related by something _other than pure chance_, was unsubstantiated. Works for me. Of course, you’re gonna tell me now that that’s NOT what you meant, right? ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/69 "2001-01-03T12:19:28Z")
Hello **grienspace** You seem to be having something of a rough ride! You kind of brought it on yourself though. The subject line to your Great Debates OP, **“All Athiests are Caucasian”** was unfortunate. Although you later clarified that it was to attract attention and the word “caucasian” was used tongue in cheek, a subject line like that will _automatically_ generate hostility before people even read your OP. At best they will assume that you’re an idiot, at worst a troll. Then your OP was a little unclear which led to you debating several different points at once, and you eventually became pretty hostile yourself. I would suggest that you let this thread die, it soon will if you don’t post here anymore. If you want to debate the relationships between vocal atheism, culture and religious tolerance of dissent (which is what I _think_ your OP was about) start a new OP in Great Debates and post a link to it here and in the “Athiests are Caucasian” thread. And try not to be too cute with your subject line! Great Debates can be heated, and people make their points with various levels of diplomacy. Don’t take things too personally. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/70 "2001-01-03T12:41:39Z")
The Ryan said, of grienspace: > [@](#): > > You really like making claims without any support, don’t you? And then he whines like a wounded child when people point this out. grienspace said, in response to the statement, “If you still want such examples, the Catholic Church in Ireland put children from unwed mothers up for aboption without the mothers’ permission.”: > [@](#): > > Not a valid point. The church perhaps but not the state. furthermore this is not a crime against humanity.This isn’t even murder. Excuse you? Taking a child from its natural mother without the mother’s permission is not a “crime against humanity”? Says who? Since when did murder become the only “crime against humanity”? Moron. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/71 "2001-01-03T15:09:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > Excuse you? Taking a child from its natural mother without the mother’s permission is not a “crime against humanity”? Says who? Since when did murder become the only “crime against humanity”? > > Moron. > \*\* I can’t believe you said that. Uh, yes I can. I suppose we need to hang all those judges who award custody of the children to the fathers? Did I say murder was the only crime? You idiot, try reading with comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/72 "2001-01-03T15:16:10Z")
5… 4… 3… 2… 1… ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/73 "2001-01-03T15:17:28Z")
You _implied_ it by saying “it isn’t even murder”. Look, there’s about 2 dozen people here telling you, in various tones, to be more specific and clear in your writing. Yet, you chose to tell us to “read with more comprehension”? Could it be that the problem is _you_? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/74 "2001-01-03T15:29:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > This statement reduces your original claim to **“Sometimes when bad things happen, they happen in societies that have a separation of church and state, or they happen in societies where religion does not play an active roll altogether”**. > To which the scientific answer is: **"Well, _duh_."** \*\* what?\*\* > [@](#): > > At this stage, you basically have admitted that your initial implication that **non-religious governments** and **crimes against humanity** are related by something _other than pure chance_, was unsubstantiated. > \*\* **what?** Sorry, but I don’t see the logic in your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/75 "2001-01-03T15:31:03Z")
I didn’t think you would. Oh well :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/76 "2001-01-03T15:41:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt \* > \*\*Hello **grienspace** > > You seem to be having something of a rough ride! You kind of brought it on yourself though. > > The subject line to your Great Debates OP, **“All Athiests are Caucasian”** was unfortunate. Although you later clarified that it was to attract attention and the word “caucasian” was used tongue in cheek, a subject line like that will _automatically_ generate hostility before people even read your OP. At best they will assume that you’re an idiot, at worst a troll. Then your OP was a little unclear which led to you debating several different points at once, and you eventually became pretty hostile yourself. > > I would suggest that you let this thread die, it soon will if you don’t post here anymore. If you want to debate the relationships between vocal atheism, culture and religious tolerance of dissent (which is what I _think_ your OP was about) start a new OP in Great Debates and post a link to it here and in the “Athiests are Caucasian” thread. And try not to be too cute with your subject line! > > Great Debates can be heated, and people make their points with various levels of diplomacy. Don’t take things too personally. \*\* Thankyou for your advice Matt. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/77 "2001-01-04T03:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > Unfortunate placement and ommission of commas. Should read “Ryan said, I believe, that some …”. I was referring to your putdown of Polycarp.Sorry for the misquote. Have you never heard of the concept of sarcasm? > [@](#): > > Do you mean like when christianity gets singled out so often? Depends on the circumstance. If we’re talking about the situation in the US, then other religions aren’t much of a concern, and so ignoring them isn;t really singling out Christianity. > [@](#): > > Not a valid point. The church perhaps but not the state. It’s rather difficult to procure adoption papers without the complicity of the State. > [@](#): > > Wait a minute here! you are misrepresenting me again in furtherance to your position. As someone said earlier, West is West and I say the 20th century is still the 20th century. I have never used the phrase **previous century** in this forum.The validity of my previous examples remain intact. How am I furthering my position? Your insistence that only incidents from the 20th century can be interpreted two ways: either you believe that only recent events should be considered, or you have arbitrarily chosen the twentieth century because it supports your position. Of the two intepretations, I chose the one that was the most rational. If I were dead set in “deliberately reading into [your] posts the most negative connotation”, as you claim, why would I have done so? David B > [@](#): > > The Ryan said, of grienspace: > quote: > You really like making claims without any support, don’t you? > > And then he whines like a wounded child when people point this out. Huh? Care to elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/78 "2001-01-04T05:44:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **Where did church and state combine in a crime against humanity (in the 20th century)** > [@](#): > > It is a matter of historical record that the Croatian Catholic Church was closely entangled with the Ustashas [the fascist movement which ruled a Nazi puppet state in Croatia during the Axis occupation of Yugoslavia in World War II – MEB]. In the early years of World War II, Catholic priests oversaw forced conversions of Orthodox Serbs under the aegis of the Ustasha state; Franciscan friars distributed Ustasha propaganda. Several high Catholic officials in Yugoslavia were later indicted for war crimes. They included Father Dragutin Kamber, who ordered the killing of nearly 300 Orthodox Serbs; Bishop Ivan Saric of Sarajevo, known as the “hangman of the Serbs”; and Bishop Gregory Rozman of Slovenia, a wanted Nazi collaborator. A trial held by the Yugoslav War Crimes Commission in 1946 resulted in the conviction of a half-dozen Ustasha priests, among them former Franciscan Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, a commandant of the Jasenovac concentration camp where the Ustashas tortured and slaughtered hundreds of thousands with a brutality that shocked even the Nazis.-- [“A vow of silence: Did gold stolen by Croatian fascists reach the Vatican?”](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/980330/30gold.htm) by Susan Headden, Dana Hawkins, and Jason Vest, [_U.S. News and World Report_](http://www.usnews.com), March 30, 1998. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/79 "2001-01-04T12:07:19Z")
Ryan: I was simply following up on your statement about grienspace. The “he” in my statement was not about you! grienspace said: > [@](#): > > I suppose we need to hang all those judges who award custody of the children to the fathers? That isn’t what you were talking about, was it? > [@](#): > > Did I say murder was the only crime? No, but you sure did imply it strongly. Nice try at backing out, though. > [@](#): > > You idiot, try reading with comprehension. As Coldfire already noted, perhaps you should consider that it’s not everybody else around here who are the idiots. In fact, there’s only one idiot here, and if you go look in the mirror, you’ll find him. Run along, child. ---
**Author:** ![aviddiva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aviddiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aviddiva)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458/80 "2001-01-05T00:31:12Z")
While I agree with Matt’s suggestion that this thread be left to die quietly, I am nonetheless reviving it to point out that, although the GD thread which spawned it has been abandoned, I have posted a long, tedious response to the original post. If anyone here is still interested, check it out. Oh, and as this is (I believe) my first Pit post: Fuck you all! You stink and your mother wears army boots! (No, wait. _my_ mother wears army boots. But some of you may already know that.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andros-your-a-sour-cream-puff-grienspace/47458.md?page=5)