# Andy Rooney's modern art rant **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 26, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131 "2006-06-26T00:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/281 "2006-06-27T14:00:41Z")
**Stonebow** , thanks for finally giving “the other guys” an intelligent voice. [QUOTE=Stonebow] I always have the nagging feeling that newer art is a joke being played on the audience; since skills mastery is no longer an issue, it’s just a matter of how compelling a back-story the artist can tell. [/QUOTE] Sure enough, many people feel this way, but I think you’re intelligent enough to realize that it is only your nagging feeling, and not the reality of the art. I trust you to seek out an education in modern art if you so desire, and not just ignorantly declare that art is not restricted to purdy pitchers of stuff wot looks like things. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/282 "2006-06-27T14:01:54Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] and not just ignorantly declare that art is not restricted to purdy pitchers of stuff wot looks like things. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Not “not.” ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/283 "2006-06-27T14:41:39Z")
> [@](#): > > We, the writers, painters, sculptors, architects and lovers of the beauty of Paris, do protest with all our vigour and all our indignation, in the name of French taste and endangered French art and history, against the useless and monstrous Eiffel Tower." Good for them. That thing is hideous. ---
**Author:** ![percussion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/43a26b/32.png) [@percussion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percussion)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/284 "2006-06-27T14:46:31Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] Good for them. That thing is hideous. [/QUOTE] a lot longer… ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/285 "2006-06-27T15:09:48Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] You may want to start acting like you believe your second paragraph or are merely saying it just to placate the wolves. [/QUOTE] I have no idea what you mean…I believe it 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/286 "2006-06-27T15:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Sounds a lot like our idiot president talking. It’s not at all about making life better overall, it’s simply about education. [/QUOTE] It’s about preparing people for life, and helping to ensure that they can support themselves. > [@](#): > > You’re placing a whole lot of importance on teacher-to student based education as opposed to practical application of talent. Both are important in shaping a person’s skill set, but your slider seems to be thrust way on the “education” side. Would that mean that you can get a pig to paint a Picasso with enough time in the classroom? What about a racoon, an animal with opposable thumbs (so it can hold a paintbrush)? My brother majored in art in college, and he had plenty of training in the practical application of talent. That’s what he learned. Sure, he had other classes, but as an art major, he learned how to paint. And no, I could not have learned it myself if I spent 20 years in college, because I have no talent to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![percussion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/43a26b/32.png) [@percussion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percussion)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/287 "2006-06-27T15:30:28Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] It’s about preparing people for life, and helping to ensure that they can support themselves. My brother majored in art in college, and he had plenty of training in the practical application of talent. That’s what he learned. Sure, he had other classes, but as an art major, he learned how to paint. And no, I could not have learned it myself if I spent 20 years in college, because I have no talent to begin with. [/QUOTE] i dont get the relvance of the seccond half of this, or anything about your brother. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/288 "2006-06-27T15:37:55Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] Good for them. That thing is hideous. [/QUOTE] The one in Blackpool is much better 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/289 "2006-06-27T15:39:52Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] This logic doesn’t make much sense to me. If someone finds a government expenditure offensive, that alone makes it a misuse of public funds? A lot fo people are offended by the war in Iraq. Does that fact alone make it a misuse of public funds? A lot of people are offended by affirmative action, or welfare, or funding Planned Parenthood clinics. Does that fact alone make it a misuse of public funds? I think we need a standard for “misuse” a little more stringent than, “Some people don’t like it,” else we’ve just invalidated the entire concept of government altogether. [/QUOTE] I think the majority of the people on this board believe that the war is a misuse of public funds. I personally believe that funding Planned Parenthood clinics is a misuse of public funds. None of us have the unilateral power to shut down government spending that we don’t like…that is why we have a democracy. However, I believe there are valid arguments for why we need to be involved in Iraq, and why we need to have Planned Parenthood clinics. There is much less of a valid argument for why the piece “Piss Christ” needs to be supported by the NEA when it clearly offends such a large portion of the population. And, as I said, art is a touchy area…who is going to decide which pieces are OK to fund, and which aren’t? If a grant is turned down due to offensive content, isn’t that censorship? > [@](#): > > But there are thousands of doctors who do live off of government grants. Medical researchers are the obvious example, a great many of whom rely on grants to support their research, but are hospitals also not supported, at least in part, by government money? That is true, but the point I was making about the doctors is that the government does not have an _obligation_ to fund these doctors, because they can’t make a living being a doctor. Of course this is not the reason the government fund the artist…they fund the artist because the government seems to believe that it is an obligation of society to be sure that art is created. In the same way, the government funds the doctors because they want the research done. I would actually argue that both the art and the research would get done without the government’s involvement. At the same time, my opinion is that the research is a better use of revenue than funding art. I know that is an unpopular opinion around here, but that is what I believe. And, no, before anyone accuses me of this, it is NOT because I don’t like art, and I think artists are lazy. > [@](#): > > I think you’re looking at this the wrong way around. The goal is not to support artists, the goal is to support _art_. The idea is that art is a necessary component to a robust and healthy society. I’m assuming you agree with this axiom, at the least. The argument in favor of funding is that, absent government support, there will be insufficient art produced to meet this demand, or that the art will be of inferior quality. That’s a debatable point, of course, but not one I’ve seen you address except in passing - more on that later. Yes, I agree that art is important. BUT… > [@](#): > > Now, applying that to your dogwalking analogy - is dogwalking a necessary function of the public? Will society as a whole suffer if there is insufficient walking of dogs? If there is, then yes, the government should pay you to walk dogs. That’s what the government is for: to meet the needs and requirements of society that cannot be adequately fulfilled by private individuals. Since there are no good arguments (as far as I’m aware) as to the critical necessity of well-exercised canines to the social good at large, I’m afraid you’re SOL on the dog-walking subsidy. I don’t believe that the need for art cannot be adequately fulfilled in the private sector. I sincerely dislike the idea that government is this paternalistic entity that saves the pathetic, unwashed, unsophisticated regular people from themselves. I believe that art would still flourish under patronage from business and other private entities, as it already does today in many instances. > [@](#): > > Since you’re the one advocating a change to the status quo, I think the burden falls on you to provide evidence that orchestras (and museums, and galleries, and what the hell, let’s throw libraries in there, too) can survive without government aid. Certainly there are some that could, and already do. But a total revocation of all government monies seems certain to result in massive closures of such institutes across the country. I already mentioned way back in the thread that I believe there is an inherent difference between a museum or library, the intention of which is to enable all to be exposed to art & culture, and spending millions of dollars on large art installations that may or may not be appreciated by the public, or giving a grant to someone to create art that may or may not even be experienced by the public. In these latter cases there is MAYBE some larger societal benefit, but it is nebulous at best. > [@](#): > > Let’s put it this way, since you’re a lover of the symphony - would you be willing to risk the total destruction of every orchestra of which you are a patron, to test out your theory on the economic viability of the symphony as a private endeavor? Personally speaking, I’d rather have some numbers at hand to support my position on a drastic, possibly destructive change in the sphere of social policy, before I started advocating such a position as desirable. Again, never said we should destroy the orchestras. I do think it is desirable to raise as much of the funding as possible in the private sector. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/290 "2006-06-27T16:02:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Again, never said we should destroy the orchestras. I do think it is desirable to raise as much of the funding as possible in the private sector. [/QUOTE] They already do raise as much funding as possible in the private sector. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/291 "2006-06-27T16:03:13Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] They already do raise as much funding as possible in the private sector. [/QUOTE] I don’t know if that is necessarily true. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/292 "2006-06-27T16:10:13Z")
Why would you assume that it isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/293 "2006-06-27T16:10:19Z")
I should add that I realize that the private sector doesn’t know what it is doing half the time, either. Our esteemed Mayor Daley here in Chicago raised I think $28 Million for [this thing](http://www.millenniumpark.org/artandarchitecture/cloud_gate.html) , using all private donations. Personally, I think that if you are going to raise that kind of money to be spent on the arts, it would be much better spent on the library, the art museums, the symphony, etc. I’m quite sure that these types of institutions provide the public a much more worthwhile exposure to art than that bean ever will. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/294 "2006-06-27T16:16:05Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] [Sure enough, many people feel this way, but I think you’re intelligent enough to realize that it is only your nagging feeling, and not the reality of the art. [/QUOTE] Ah, but what \*is \* the reality of the art? We have several options, none of which i am happy accepting. I’m not a fan of the idea that ‘everything is art.’ That sort of cheapens the definition of art, and also begs the question, “well, if everything is art, why do you need my money to make it?” I’d rather my art be inaccessible physically (man, i can’t even imagine how they did that!) and accessible psychologically ( I instinctively understand what it means and why they did it) rather than the reverse. Art should be somewhat arcane in its creation…but it should speak for itself. A term paper explaining the piece makes the actual art redundant. So, I guess it depends on your preferences. But instinctively, I think people are resistant to the idea of others ‘getting over’ on them, and when you present something as art that requires a trivial amount of effort, or seems like anyone could have come up with, it rankles a bit. Add to that a request for funding of this endeavor, and people can get quite hostile. ---
**Author:** ![percussion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/43a26b/32.png) [@percussion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percussion)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/295 "2006-06-27T16:20:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I should add that I realize that the private sector doesn’t know what it is doing half the time, either. Our esteemed Mayor Daley here in Chicago raised I think $28 Million for [this thing](http://www.millenniumpark.org/artandarchitecture/cloud_gate.html) , using all private donations. Personally, I think that if you are going to raise that kind of money to be spent on the arts, it would be much better spent on the library, the art museums, the symphony, etc. I’m quite sure that these types of institutions provide the public a much more worthwhile exposure to art than that bean ever will. [/QUOTE] Did you not read my post aobut the TSO, The largest private donation they have ever recieved!! in 84 seasons is 5 million dollars!! and they are fighting like dogs to get some money…5 million is small potatos in an endevor like a symphony orchestra season!!! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/296 "2006-06-27T16:25:16Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I should add that I realize that the private sector doesn’t know what it is doing half the time, either. Our esteemed Mayor Daley here in Chicago raised I think $28 Million for [this thing](http://www.millenniumpark.org/artandarchitecture/cloud_gate.html) , using all private donations. Personally, I think that if you are going to raise that kind of money to be spent on the arts, it would be much better spent on the library, the art museums, the symphony, etc. I’m quite sure that these types of institutions provide the public a much more worthwhile exposure to art than that bean ever will. [/QUOTE] Well, I’m glad you made it clear it’s just your opinion, because I think that’s a beautiful sculpture - just brilliant! Wow! Thanks for posting that link. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/297 "2006-06-27T16:43:15Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Well, I’m glad you made it clear it’s just your opinion, because I think that’s a beautiful sculpture - just brilliant! Wow! Thanks for posting that link. [/QUOTE] You know…I made it sound more like I don’t like it than I really meant to. I actually think it’s ok, and I have heard that when you see it in person, it is cool the way it reflects everything around it (haven’t had a chance to get down there yet). The problem I have with it is more that it was budgeted to cost $6 million, and it overran to $28 million. :eek: This MAY be more of a commentary on how things are run in Chicago, than on the art itself, but I heard that the main reason for the overrun is because the artist didn’t like that the seams between the individual pieces of steel showed, and it took them a year, and millions of dollars, to polish them so they are less visible at close range. I just think $28 million dollars is an AWFUL lot of $$$, no matter how cool it is, and I’m not sure it’s worthwhile when you compare it to supporting the Art Institute or the library. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/298 "2006-06-27T16:52:08Z")
[QUOTE=percussion] Did you not read my post aobut the TSO, The largest private donation they have ever recieved!! in 84 seasons is 5 million dollars!! and they are fighting like dogs to get some money…5 million is small potatos in an endevor like a symphony orchestra season!!! [/QUOTE] The thing is!!! that I can’t tell from that!! how much effort has been made to raise those private donations!!! Seriously, I’m sure they try all kinds of ways to raise $$$. The thing is, Canada is a more socialist government than the US, and I think that when the private sector is used to the government taking care of paying for things (and when taxes are on the high side as a result of this spending), they are less likely to want to pay for things themselves. This could be a contributing factor in the inability for the TSO to be able to raise the money in the private sector. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/299 "2006-06-27T16:55:21Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] This MAY be more of a commentary on how things are run in Chicago, than on the art itself, but I heard that the main reason for the overrun is because the artist didn’t like that the seams between the individual pieces of steel showed, and it took them a year, and millions of dollars, to polish them so they are less visible at close range. [/QUOTE] Good lord. I can’t imagine how to justify $22 million in **cost** increase on this project. You could probably hire the 50 best metalworkers in the world for an entire year for that much. But, it’s a gorgeous sculpture. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/300 "2006-06-27T17:06:32Z")
[QUOTE=galt] Good lord. I can’t imagine how to justify $22 million in **cost** increase on this project. You could probably hire the 50 best metalworkers in the world for an entire year for that much. But, it’s a gorgeous sculpture. Go figure. [/QUOTE] I know, it’s crazy. I WANT to like it…but whenever I see it, I think “$28 million…$28 million…” I just right near the park just yesterday, but I didn’t go see it because it makes me crazy. Someday I will get over it and check it out, but I think it may take me a while. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131.md?page=16)