# Andy Rooney's modern art rant **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 26, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131 "2006-06-26T00:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/341 "2006-06-28T01:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **blinkingblinking** : You chose the worst possible example-The Eiffel Tower > I thought this was generally known but apparently not. A lot of Parisienne people (from 1889 until now) hate the Eiffel tower. A lot of Parisiennes like the tower but think it is out of place in Paris. If you had ever been to Paris and seen all the other architecture you would see their point. > My friends in Paris confirmed this with me. > I happen to like the Eiffel Tower. Oh yes! This is true! I was in Paris in April of 2004 and the Parisiens are still trying to get ride of the hideous thing. Have you ever noticed all of the planes that circle it? They are trying to find a time when no one is there so that they can bomb it to kingdom come. For two or three years now, there have been uniformed and armed French soldiers at the base trying to fight through the crowds of tourists to rig it with explosives, but it has been too crowded to even put up the “Boom Goes the Dynamite” signs. Twice a year – in July and December – all of Paris gathers to try to push the Tower over, but they are pushing from all directions at the same time and it has been a four-way tie each time. Curses. Word has it that they keep adding lights to make it easier to see as a target. The “light spasm” that happens for ten minutes once an hour at night is said to be a “triple chien dare” – whatever that means. Meanwhile, the totally tasteless continue to flock to see this relic from _La Belle Epoque_. The last estimate was 300,000,000 – or maybe it was only 200 hundred million since it opened. Who can blame the Parisiens? They’re very private, you know. You are also right that it doesn’t go with the rest of the buildings which are all Eighteenth Century. I abhor inconsistency. Yes, as the Parisiens say, it’s very out of place in Paris. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/342 "2006-06-28T02:19:30Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] But all of your objections to federal arts funding applies equally to state arts funding. Lots of people in New York were offended by Cerrano’s picture. Why is it okay for people to foot the bill for art they don’t like if it’s funded by the state, but not okay for people to foot the bill for art they don’t like, just because it’s funded by the feds? And what about the people in Oklahoma who don’t have a problem with Cerrano’s work? [/QUOTE] It is true that the objections also apply to state arts funding. As I said… [QUOTE=Sarahfeena] because government at this level has a much better shot at representing its constituency than the federal government does [/QUOTE] Of course, our governement is representative. All it can hope to do it represent the majority. A local governance is **more likely** to represent the opinion of its constituency than the feds are. > [@](#): > > So, is it the first ammendment you don’t like, or just the fourteenth? I fully support the US Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/343 "2006-06-28T02:22:06Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] But you realize, of course, that the decision to give Andres Serrano a grant was made at the **local** , not the \*\*national \*\* level. The National Endowment for Arts gave a grant to the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art in Winston-Salem North Carolina to support a local art competition. SECCA then gave money to Serrano after he won the competition. Clearly at least some folks in North Carolina wanted to support “that kind of art” and if other folks in North Carolina didn’t like it should have remained a local problem. Most of the NEA grants are like that. They give the money to local art organizations, not directly to the artists themselves. [/QUOTE] Thank you…you just supported my point. The grant was **awarded** at the local level, but **funded** at the federal level. This is exactly my problem…why should I in Illinois have to fund a piece of art I find offensive, because North Carolina thought it was ok? ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/344 "2006-06-28T02:28:00Z")
[QUOTE=Stonebow] Well, I’m late to the thread, but as someone that agrees in some measure with the OP, I felt I’d chime in. First off, I’d like to concede 2 things: 1. I believe that art in the public sphere is a good thing, whether publicly or privately financed 2. currently art funding is a minuscule part of any budget, and really doesn’t deserve the vitriol it receives. 3. I will confess that my art education definitely skews toward Medieval/Renaissance, though I have a cursory knowledge of the modern/post-modern movements. I think the hostility to modern and post-modern art (and by extension, its funding by government) stems from the departure from realistic representation, as had been discussed earlier in the thread. Traditionally, there has been somewhat objective standard re: the worth of a piece; those standards seem to have gone away- indeed, some say that we are beyond those now due to technical advances. I look at classical art, and see things that I know that I could not do myself. The exact representation of the human form, natural scenes, etc. with nothing more than hand tools, using stone or canvas as a palate, is breathtaking. I always have the nagging feeling that newer art is a joke being played on the audience; since skills mastery is no longer an issue, it’s just a matter of how compelling a back-story the artist can tell. I’m too much of a cynic to not see that this allows for more bullshit artistry than anything else. And who’s to say if the artist is sincere? In any case, I think this feeling underlines a lot of the hostility here. Da Vinci’s art does not depend on his sincerity, or any ‘message’ to prop it up. It is what it is. For public sculptures, either give me technically realistic representations in media requiring some sort of technical mastery, or, if the abstract is what is needed for the space, why not do something that is physically challenging (balancing, stacking, interlocking, etc.) in the medium? Like most folks, I want to feel as though what i paid for (through taxes or otherwise) required some work to make or think up. I absolutely despise art that appears to be crap looking for a purpose rather than a purpose seeking an out. [/QUOTE] Well, it sounds like a problem that you personally have with art, and modern art in specific. If you’re going to rip on something and dismiss it, the best way to do it is to study it and put together a good argument why it should be more celebrated. If your complaints still hold up to it, then you may be onto something. Pick up a few books on modern art. Visit the museum. Do some research. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/345 "2006-06-28T02:36:21Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] True, but I’m sure you know that’s not what I meant. What I meant was that it is a matter of opinion whether or not the government ought to fund the arts, and to what extent. I am of the opinion that IN GENERAL the government funds too damn much. That is obviously not the opinion of a lot of other people, and the problem with winning or losing an argument about it is that it is nothing BUT an opinion. [/QUOTE] Well, you keep saying the same thing over. It’s like you’ve been properly brainwashed to think this way and that there was no path of thought to get you to this point. Yes, the proponents of funding art aren’t backing down. That’s because the burden of proving the system is wrong is squarely on you. Prove your point, or open your mind and fight your programming. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/346 "2006-06-28T02:37:40Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] It is true that the objections also apply to state arts funding. As I said… Of course, our governement is representative. All it can hope to do it represent the majority. A local governance is **more likely** to represent the opinion of its constituency than the feds are. [/quote] Your position does not make any sense, though. If it’s wrong for someone in Oklahoma to pay for art they don’t like in New York, why is it less wrong for someone in Oklahoma to pay for art they don’t like in Oklahoma? Why does the geographical distance involved make the injustice greater? > [@](#): > > I fully support the US Constitution. Well, rather than hijack this thread yet again, I suggest you search GD for threads on Creationism to figure out why that is wholly at odds with your belief that schools in Arkansas should be able to teach Intelligent Design. > [@](#): > > Thank you…you just supported my point. The grant was awarded at the local level, but funded at the federal level. This is exactly my problem…why should I in Illinois have to fund a piece of art I find offensive, because North Carolina thought it was ok? Actually, I’m afraid he demolished your point. You’ve argued (somewhat bafflingly) that art funding decisions should be made on the state level, because that makes it more representative of the standards of the residents of that state. Well, federal grants _are_ awarded at the state level. Assuming all states are receiving from the fund in amounts commensurate with how much they pay in, the effect is identical to the funding being collected and disbursed at the state level. Your chief complaint against federal funding of the arts just went up in smoke. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/347 "2006-06-28T02:41:47Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] My point is that classical music is very popular around the world. Thus it does not need Government funding. If you do not like my example, find another example. [/QUOTE] Or YOU could find another example, since that particular one has been shown repeatedly to be a bad one. Although I do find it cute when you put your hands over your ears and yell so that you can’t hear us. On the other hand… you know, it’s kinda sexy when a man admits he’s wrong. You could try it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/348 "2006-06-28T02:45:55Z")
You know, I’ve been wrong about _lots_ of stuff… ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/349 "2006-06-28T02:52:05Z")
Yeah. Um. I’m wrong…you know…about…stuff… …am I adding to my sexiness? (on preview: Damn you, **Miller**!) ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/350 "2006-06-28T02:52:35Z")
You’ll have to show me some examples **Miller** , I haven’t seen any in here. But being right is sexy, too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/351 "2006-06-28T03:04:29Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Assuming all states are receiving from the fund in amounts commensurate with how much they pay in, the effect is identical to the funding being collected and disbursed at the state level. Your chief complaint against federal funding of the arts just went up in smoke. [/QUOTE] Is that an assumption we are safe in making? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/352 "2006-06-28T03:15:39Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Your position does not make any sense, though. If it’s wrong for someone in Oklahoma to pay for art they don’t like in New York, why is it less wrong for someone in Oklahoma to pay for art they don’t like in Oklahoma? Why does the geographical distance involved make the injustice greater? [/QUOTE] I really don’t see how I can explain it any more clearly. If you don’t understand that the cultures & values of the states are different, and each elects government representatives to reflect these cultures & values, and so state goverment is more likely to represent the will of the people in that state more than the federal government will, then I guess you think we shouldn’t have state government at all. > [@](#): > > Well, rather than hijack this thread yet again, I suggest you search GD for threads on Creationism to figure out why that is wholly at odds with your belief that schools in Arkansas should be able to teach Intelligent Design. I am supposed to take the opinions of people posting here as some kind of evidence that I am wrong about this? I’ll thank you for letting me have my own opinion about the meaning of the Constitution. I seriously doubt that anything I read here will convince me that I should feel differently about it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/353 "2006-06-28T04:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Thank you…you just supported my point. The grant was **awarded** at the local level, but **funded** at the federal level. This is exactly my problem…why should I in Illinois have to fund a piece of art I find offensive, because North Carolina thought it was ok? [/QUOTE] Some states (and cities, and neighborhoods) are poorer than others, making it harder for them to fund art (and other civic improvements) locally. So I think it’s a very fine thing that we have a common pool of money that can be distributed throughout the country for these sorts of activities. You don’t live in North Carolina. You don’t have to look at what the North Carolinians do with their money. So what do you care? If the North Carolinians want to spend their share of the money on black velvet paintings and kazoo concerts, that’s their business. It doesn’t harm you or me in the least. It sounds like you want more, not less, centralized control – somewhat of an odd stance coming from a libertarian. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/354 "2006-06-28T04:32:16Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I really don’t see how I can explain it any more clearly. If you don’t understand that the cultures & values of the states are different, and each elects government representatives to reflect these cultures & values, and so state goverment is more likely to represent the will of the people in that state more than the federal government will, then I guess you think we shouldn’t have state government at all. [/quote] Actually, I think you’ve been plenty clear. It’s just that your position is not internally consistent. If you’re going to say that it’s wrong to make people pay for art they don’t like, you cannot turn around and say that you think its okay for states to fund arts. Any state-run arts program is going to produce art that offends some of the people whose taxes paid into the program. This is inherent in the nature of art: nothing is going to appeal to everyone. If it’s some sort of injustice that a person in North Carolina has to pay to make art they don’t like in Arizona, then it is equally an injustice if that person has to pay to make art they don’t like in North Carolina. I’m afraid your position in this thread is simply not logical. > [@](#): > > I am supposed to take the opinions of people posting here as some kind of evidence that I am wrong about this? I’ll thank you for letting me have my own opinion about the meaning of the Constitution. I seriously doubt that anything I read here will convince me that I should feel differently about it. Two things: First, if nothing you read on this site can possibly change your opinion, why are you here in the first place? And second, it’s not a matter of opinion. It’s a matter of fact. The first ammendment prohibits the government from establishing a religion, and the fourteenth extends the prohibitions on the actions of the federal government to the states. You cannot support the right of a state to teach Creationism, which is a religious doctrine, as scientific fact in a public school, without also supporting the repeal of either the first or the fourteenth ammendments. ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/355 "2006-06-28T04:36:29Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] Or YOU could find another example, since that particular one has been shown repeatedly to be a bad one. Although I do find it cute when you put your hands over your ears and yell so that you can’t hear us. On the other hand… you know, it’s kinda sexy when a man admits he’s wrong. You could try it. [/QUOTE] Do I really have to prove that classical music is incredibly popular in the world now? Tell you what, you prove to me that it is not popular and I will refute you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/356 "2006-06-28T04:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] Do I really have to prove that classical music is incredibly popular in the world now? Tell you what, you prove to me that it is not popular and I will refute you. [/QUOTE] You really don’t know how a debate works, do you? While we’re at it, how about that defence of your view of movies as “not art?” We going to be getting that anytime soon? ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/357 "2006-06-28T05:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] You really don’t know how a debate works, do you? While we’re at it, how about that defence of your view of movies as “not art?” We going to be getting that anytime soon? [/QUOTE] You can believe what you want. Luciano Pavarotti has sold over 100 million albums in his career. > **[BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Pavarotti recovers from surgery](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4374415.stm)** > > Opera superstar Luciano Pavarotti had neck surgery to repair two vertebrae earlier this month, it is revealed. ‘Three Tenors in Concert’ has sold over 10 million copies worldwide. Henryk Górecki’s Third Symphony sold more than 1 million CDs. Gregorian chant CD sold over 4 million copies. “Moreover, according to the National Endowment for the Arts, 30 million adults (16 percent) had attended a classical music event in the previous 12 months.” [http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/nerr/rr2003/q2/requiem.htm](http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/nerr/rr2003/q2/requiem.htm) Does that show that classical music is popular? ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/358 "2006-06-28T06:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] Does that show that classical music is popular? [/QUOTE] Yes, and coincidentally, it shows that you have no fucking clue how to construct a logical argument. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/359 "2006-06-28T07:40:12Z")
[QUOTE=blinkingblinking] Does that show that classical music is popular? [/QUOTE] Popular enough for the State to go “Hey, people really like this stuff, but there’s a private funding shortfall, so why don’t we help orchestras out with some of this extra cash we have lying around”. Or do you think it’d still be quite as popular if ticket prices reflected the _true cost_ of running an orchestra? Oh, and Ha!Ha!Ha! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2006, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131/360 "2006-06-28T07:54:56Z")
**Sarahfeena** , I live literally within 15 minutes of the Southern Baptist Convention. Should I go with predominate local tastes? States-wide preferences? Pin my hopes on travelling art? Don’t count too much on stereotypes. Nashville voted blue. It’s in a red state, but the Western third of the state is liberal. Yet I grew up near Skullbone, a tiny widespot in the road, and the Kingdom of Skullbonia, touted in the _New York Times_ for its bizarre white supremest/Hell’s Angels/friendly neighborhood rock and country concerts that attract good music, a diverse crowd and 3,000 motorcycles. All of this takes place pretty much in the backyards of the Mennonites. I’ve lived in Nashville over 40 years and never seen a performance of the Grand Ole Opry. Shame on me for that though. I like Appalachian music and some of the older country pieces and the Celtic sound that much of it is based upon. But my favorite music is jazz, especially Latin jazz. That’s what I was listening to Friday afternoon when last I drove past the Graylines Tour Bus and the Southern Baptist Convention. Thanks to Dr. Frist, we have us some Egyptian Culture right now, but we may need help from the outside world after that. We even sent scouts to Oklahoma and Arkansas to take leftovers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/andy-rooneys-modern-art-rant/362131.md?page=19)