Anecdote: when I was on vacation in Wales, I saw someone walking a pit-bull-looking dog. I asked if I could pet the dog, as I usually do when I see somebody walking a dog. The person walking it said I could, and the dog jumped up and licked my face.
Sure.
They weren’t ever considered “mean” until they became the “bad dog du jour” succeeding German shepherd dogs, rottweilers and dobermans which all held the top spot in the past few decades. During WW1 pit bulls were used as the canine symbol of the US in propaganda posters. Stubby, a brown and white pit, is the most decorated war dog in U.S. history, having saved hundreds of lives in WW1.
That’s exactly what mine would do. The only thing anyone has to fear from my dog is getting licked to death, or maybe getting knocked over in the attempt. (We’re working on that.)
Someone mentioned above that pit bulls are not very smart. This isn’t true at all in my experience - my dog is very trainable, intuitive, and has shown startling signs of thoughtful behaviour. His only behavioural problem is that he gets so excited that he forgets his manners sometimes, but he is young and a rescue and I can see that our training is working. I have found this to be true of many pit bulls.
He never jumps on kids, tho - with kids, he just stands dead still and lets them pet him. They love him. I’ve accidentally jabbed my finger in his eye/yanked his ear/stepped on his tail more times than I can remember (I’m clumsy, really … not abusive!) and he’s never flinched. I think anxious and nervous dogs are the dangerous ones, and my pit bull is the least anxious creature I have ever met.
Also, the dog that won the most titles ever was Bandog Dread, a pit bull.
Whack-a-Mole
I’m a big believer that there are no inherently bad dogs, just bad and/or stupid owners.
My own experience is that the yappy little rat-dogs are the ones that will bite you. I don’t know if this is due to it just not being serious so the owner isn’t terribly worried and doesn’t train the dog, or the things are just too damn twitchy. Some of both, I suspect.
Regards
Testy
First off let me state my bonafides. I am NOT a dog expert. I am more a well informed amateur. I have had some training with dog handling via the Anti Cruelty Society in Chicago and lots of it with my own dogs (a lifetime of them…40+ years with barely a gap). I have attended numerous dog training classes and read more books than I can remember on the subject of dogs. I frequently read about various breeds as well and I almost never pass up the chance to meet any dog when I am out and about. Call it extensive anecdotal evidence if you will but in the end it is just my impressions and not based on a scientific study (although I have been informed by a few of those).
I also want to state the caveat that I think any breed of domestic dog can be fine. I really think it comes down more to a good owner who properly raises the animal. That said I think some dogs require a more savvy owner than others.
Dogs that will challenge owners I have found to be (in no particular order):
- Chows
- American Pit Bull Terrier (not to be confused with the American Staffordshire Terrier…I think Petey from the Little Rascals was actually a Staffordshire)
- Doberman (although to be honest it has been ages since I ran across one)
- Akita
- German Shepherd Dog
- Rottweiler
- Dalmation
I am probably forgetting some. Met a few nasty Bulldogs and Boxers in my time but not enough to list them since I do not really know.
I think part of the problem has been unscrupulous breeding by puppy mills. While I cannot say for certain with the other breeds I KNOW this is an issue with the German Shepherd Dog (I have had GSDs my whole life and follow them very closely). Due to inbreeding/poor breeding these dogs are generally a pale shadow of the dog they once were.
Indeed I was reading about Homeland Security going outside the US to obtain GSDs for security work. They did not say why they went outside the US in what I read but seems suggestive to me. Ordinarily a GSD has an exceptionally stable temperament…partly why they are so sought after as a working dog (that and their size and high intelligence and Grade-A work ethic). Sadly poor breeding has led to many examples of a rather twitchy dog and in a GSD that can be downright dangerous. A GSD in its ideal form (and they still exist) is a stunningly even tempered animal and not prone at all to unwarranted violence.
Still, in most cases these dogs can be dealt with and raised ok but just like humans you do get examples of ones who are just wired wrong and are very difficult to handle…if it is possible at all. Heck, dogs can suffer from mental issues you would think only apply to humans (GSDs can display Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). However, in these cases these dogs, in the hands of someone not seriously committed to the dog’s well-being and knowledgeable of their needs and well informed about dog training you can end up with a very dodgy to actually dangerous dog.
I should note I have found many small breeds to be downright neurotic. Much moreso than larger breeds in general. Given their small stature though they cannot inflict much harm. There is a world of difference between having a Pekingese going after you and an Akita going after you. Most dog bites go unreported and I would not be surprised at all if the majority of unreported dog bites occur from small dogs.
I’ll admit though I am a large dog fan and while I like any dog and will meet them I am less informed about the smaller breeds. Whether their seemingly innate issues are due to the breed or a common thread among people who tend to get that kind of dog I am not sure although back to the original point I tend to think the owner has more to do with the final result than the breed itself.
The problem with the smallers dogs mostly also lies with their owners treating them like little children, not dogs.
Most smaller dogs almost never get disciplined and therefore think they are the alpha dog in the household.
I have never had problems with big dogs but when a little hamster on steroids comes charging at me they scare the crap out of me.
Anne
I take your point about being the alpha leader in the house and I have always made sure the dog knew who was in charge. As you say, it can get very ugly if you don’t. I could take anything out of the dog’s mouth without problems. What I liked was that he would extend this behavior to others. The little girl that ate his food was pretty much a stranger. I always knew my wife or daughter could do things like that with him but I never expected him to allow a stranger to do so. As you say, the alpha can take food away from beta or gamma but the little kid was none of the above.
Regards
Testy
I would generally agree, although I’d generalize that “challenge” means different things with each one of these breeds.
Again, all broad generalizations, but IMHO and all that:
Dobermans have a tendancy to be very sharp/shy dogs, insecure. Most of this comes from overbreeding in the 80s. It’s extremely difficult to find working temperament dobies in the US, but there are a few kennels breeding them.
Akitas and Chows, indeed most asiatic breeds*, are very tightly bonded “one person” dogs. They are aloof and standoffish, and don’t transfer well from one owner to another. Therefore, those coming through rescue can be harder to place and present distinct challenges in that regard.
Rotties are another breed that’s suffered from the “evil breed of the moment” club, like Dobies and GSDs they went through a phase of being considered the bad guy’s dog of choice and thus a period of heavy backyard breeding. I am cautious with unfamiliar rottweilers.
APBTs need owners who can understand their gamedog background and never present their dog with a situation that challenges that long history of breeding. AmStaffs are APBTs for the show dog set. They’re the same dogs from the exact same breeding pool, but given a new label and a new future.
Dalmations can be snappish, and other than that I’m not excessively familiar with the breed.
All serious working dog folks go outside the US for working-temperament GSDs, from the private sector to the military and police. Most are Eastern European, with Czech breeding being generally preferred. German dogs, too. The two types present different benefits and drawbacks. Without getting too far into the working-dog-geekery, Americans don’t breed dogs for working qualities. They breed for good backyard pets and extreme typiness for the show ring. What makes a good pet and a good working dog are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but it does take more knowledge and effort with a dog of working temperament. They have to be exercised and given jobs to do. Most Americans don’t want that in a dog and will breed the drive and the brains out of them post haste.
Here’s a nice photo summary of the GSD in thirty generations. Take a look at the first dogs and a look at the modern dogs and you’ll see what I mean. That sloping, roached back and hideously placed pelvis is not a dog that was bred to be agile and physically capable. What was bred out of their bodies was also bred out of their brains.
*see also: little Korean hunting dog thing upthread. My guess? I’d put my money on a Jindo.
Regarding the differences in “challenges” between breeds you mentioned:
This is sort of what I was saying upthread. Yes, they are all challenges, but they’re challenges that need to be met with different handling solutions, and if a person that just sees “aggressive dog” handles a sharp/shy dog the same way they’d handle a dog challenging you for alpha, they have serious problems. What too often happens (and I’m not talking about your group, specifically) is that they just all get slapped with a “screw loose” label and have laws placed against them. None of these are bad breeds and all can be very good dogs, they just all take handling experience.
More anecdotal experience here.
Two unsupervised pits dug a hole under my grandparents fence so they could kill the dogs in the backyard, a beagle with an absolutely adorable temprament, and a very, very old mutt that didn’t even have the strength to challenge anything anymore.
My wife spent 5 years teaching grade school about thirty seconds walking distance from the intersection where the most murders in the city happen. Gang violence and drug use are rampant. Her school went on lockdown for violent crime in the area dozens of times a year, so much that it actually got “old” and routine. In that neighborhood it’s hard to find a dog that’s NOT a pit bull (I’ve actually never seen one that wasn’t). During her time there, there was at least one school kid attacked by a pit bull (usually one that lived with them) every year. I can’t recall any other types of dog attacks during that time.
But, maybe the most loving dog I’ve ever known was a rescued Pit bull. Her name was Nikki, and she just recently passed away from an untreatale disease. My brother in law owned her, and you couldn’t have asked for a better dog.
I guess the conclusion I draw from all of this is that it’s really easy for violent people to turn Pit Bulls into violent dogs. I think that families looking for a pet should definitely consider the breed of dog in their decision, and probably shouldn’t take a Pit unless they know and are prepared for what they’re getting into. I don’t think Pits are for casual pet owners.
I’ll take a pit bull any day over a freakin’ cocker spaniel. THOSE are psycho dogs. Seems like when I was growing up, everyone had one that bit.
My dog that died in May, was a black-mouthed cur. Pit-mix indeed. 80 lbs of neurotic love. My daughter opened two latches on a dog crate, crawled in, pinned the dog, the dog bit her. One puncture wound in her cheek. The baby was 6 months old, the dog 15, arthritic, near blind and almost deaf. I have absolutely no doubt whatsover, had my dog wanted to eat/harm her, she absolutely could have. She outweighed her by about 70lbs. My guess it was a warning/defensive action.
I much prefer big dogs. I’d sooner trust my child with a mastiff than a stinkin’ poodle.
I really love border collies & their “relatives.” But I work all day & rent an unfenced house. Since my ancient kitties passed away, I’m a happy co-owner of a neighborhood cat. So, unless I retire to a sheep ranch, I’ll love the collies at a distance.
Relatives in the country lived next door to 2 pit bulls, who had free run of the property. They would always run to join us when we were outside. The big danger? Their uncut tails wagged so hard that our shins were in danger of bruises…
And my only dog bite came from one of the dreadful little yippy ones. It stood yipping on the sidewalk & lunged at me as I walked by. The little teeth barely made it through my knee socks–I’ve cut myself worse shaving. But I was highly insulted that the little bitch (or son of one) dared bite me!
(I’m a big fan of The Dog Whisperer & find this dog talk highly interesting. Hope to be in a situation to give a dog a good home someday. In the meantime, cats are easier.)
I generally agree. I have seen fear biting much more prevalent in small breeds than large ones. Big dogs can easily take the punishment a child dishes out and never feel threatened. Indeed they are big enough to just get away if they are annoyed (even with the kid hanging on to the tail which I have seen a few times).
What you have to watch out for in some breeds is their natural protectiveness. This comes out in GSDs but I am sure some other breeds as well. With your own kids they are totally safe with their GSD. What can occur though is when the neighbor kids come over and rough house with your kids. GSDs can view that as an assault on “their” kid and will attack the neighbor’s kid.
Shaking, pissing, snapping little dogs can be annoying but are rarely overtly threatening. Most kids are probably safer from getting bit with a Mastiff. The flip side of course is if the Mastiff does bite it is a MUCH bigger deal.
THANK YOU!
Really! I would try hard when adopting out Border Collies to impress upon the would be owner that Border Collies have very particular requirements and do not make for a very good city dog (by virtue of their need for LOTS of exercise and LOTS of mental stimulation). But everyone likes the cute Border Collies with the bandanna around their neck catching frisbees. The Anti Cruelty Society was good at weeding out improper owners (they would easily tell someone to forget it rather than just try to unload the dog) but some still got through and we had more than a few returned. Absolutely nothing wrong with the dogs at all…this was all owner unprepared for the handful they can be (they were all sweet dogs).
It is counter-intuitive but often big dogs make better city pets. Depends on the breed but frankly I think the laziest breed I have ever met are Great Danes. Big, lazy oafs (that also for some reason think they are lap dogs…never had one fail to try to climb in my lap). They are big sure but no bigger than a coffee table when lying down. I guarantee a Border Collie would be more trouble in a small space.
Same here when I was a kid (my only dog bite). Bugger came running out of its yard as I walked by (I didn’t even know it was there) and got me on the back of my leg. My mom took me to the hospital in case of rabies (overreaction on her part I think but eh…that’s my mom).
The police went to the owners house to collect the dog for observation since it had no rabies vaccination. The owners apparently refused and as I was told the story (I was not there) the police told the owner they could shoot the dog there and take its brain or they could take the live dog and watch it awhile and return it. No idea what the police really would have done if the owner continued to refuse but apparently that was enough and they capitulated (dog was fine and returned in one piece although while waiting the hospital was considering starting a rabies treatment on me and back then that was via a needle in the abdomen…I was NOT happy at the thought of that).
That’s what bit me when I was 8.
Another issue is that people let small dogs get away with stuff that they wouldn’t let a larger dog do, because the small dogs are less of a threat and “so cute when they charge bigger dogs” :rolleyes:
I suspect there was some of that going on with the dog that bit me. The owners didn’t think it was such a big deal that their cocker spaniel wouldn’t let anyone reach near its food, because it wasn’t a big dog (cockers are usually around 25-30 pounds, give or take a bit). What happened to me might have been worse if it had been a bigger dog, but I’ve still got a scar from it.
Preach it. My 70 lb pit bull is the most low-maintenance dog I could have asked for. I know they’re not all like this, but mine lives for two things and only two things: sleep, and human affection.
He never barks at other animals or passers-by (the only time he ever barks in my presence is when I have the temerity to pay attention to something other than him). He doesn’t chew up stuff (except things I’ve given him to chew, and plastic containers out of the recycling bin). He’s not food aggressive or a resource guarder, I can take stuff out of his mouth at any time. He has a rock-hard constitution so he doesn’t make messes in the house (I can count on one hand the “pet stains” I’ve had to clean up; my last dog, a Springer Spaniel, used to throw up all the time, and have occasional accidents even after he was long housebroken). He is pleasant to strangers and houseguests (sometimes overly so, but is easily distracted by a tasty morsel). He doesn’t shed much or require any grooming. He doesn’t fuss if I forget to feed or walk him (which is actually a problem, because sometimes I do forget!). Despite his short and thin hair, he doesn’t appear to be bothered by cold so I don’t need to worry about winter clothing, even when it’s -20. Whenever he’s been hurt he’s healed incredibly quickly. If he gets bored, he finds ways to entertain himself that don’t require any support from me (e.g. supplying dog toys; confiscating things that aren’t dog toys; etc).
I could never have a border collie. I’d go insane trying to keep up with it.
Yep. Also, I would imagine that neurotic big dogs don’t get selected for breeding nearly as often as neurotic little dogs.
You are making me so want to come and meet your dog…
He’d love to meet you too!
Agreed! I tell people this all the time who say they don’t have the space for a big dog. I tell ya, a couch-potato dane or greyhound who gets walked is a far better apartment dog than a terrier without a job to do.
For a long time American Cocker Spaniels were the number one bite-dog breed in America.