# "Anesthesiologist trashes sedated patient" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 24, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403 "2015-06-24T22:19:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/61 "2015-06-26T11:56:08Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > …Making the occasional comment is one thing, but the level of jokes was totally unprofessional to the point where they may have been distracted from their real work. Makes jokes afterwards while washing up, if you have to… I didn’t read the transcript. If they were more focused on joking than on the procedure, then yes, that’s completely inappropriate, too. Maybe I’m glad I didn’t have sedation for my colonoscopy. The doctors/nurses were very pleasant, and talked me through what they were looking at. I’m quite sure they were paying attention to what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/62 "2015-06-26T12:58:27Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > (2) harmlessly upsizing a medical result to get more money _or to please the patient_ is also not unknown, and in a regulated environment like AUS or the UK, the authorities fall on you like a ton of bricks when they catch you. In the USA, that’s the function of the courts and damages. _But it’s the institutions not the patients who are the primary victoms_ Just because we don’t have universal health coverage in the US doesn’t mean that healthcare is an unregulated environment. Quite the opposite, actually. And if a clinician falsified a diagnosis, even at the behest of the patient, he or she would be subject to discipline, up to and including prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/63 "2015-06-26T13:06:42Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I’ve heard (on this board) that sometimes salesmen for specific medical appliances have to be in the room to check it’s being used correctly. Maybe it was them. When I had my second needle biopsy, they were using a new type of machine to target and launch the “harpoon” and had a guy from the company in the room–the only man in the room, by the way. He wasn’t around the machine while I was actually being harpooned, but talked to the doctor and med staff about what to do before I got on the table, then retreated into a corner out of the way and they consulted him from time to time during the procedure. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/64 "2015-06-26T13:21:03Z")
The fact that the victim wouldn’t typically know about the disgusting comments made while he was unconscious does not make it a victimless crime to behave this way. If someone is raped while unconscious and never finds out about it, we don’t say “no harm, no foul” even when no physical harm is sustained. The anesthesiologist stepped way over the line of decency and revealed an appalling level of unsuitability to be trusted with the care of an unconscious patient even before having the idiocy of writing down a fake diagnosis. A malicious bully who seeks a position of power over vulnerable helpless people should be forced from the medical profession. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/65 "2015-06-26T13:38:45Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > The fact that the victim wouldn’t typically know about the disgusting comments made while he was unconscious does not make it a victimless crime to behave this way. > > If someone is raped while unconscious and never finds out about it, we don’t say “no harm, no foul” even when no physical harm is sustained. > > The anesthesiologist stepped way over the line of decency and revealed an appalling level of unsuitability to be trusted with the care of an unconscious patient even before having the idiocy of writing down a fake diagnosis. A malicious bully who seeks a position of power over vulnerable helpless people should be forced from the medical profession. Comparing awful comments made about someone to rape, minimizes rape, IMO. What if they were making these comments together in an office, post-op, miles away from the patient? Days later, while going over procedures completed that week? Would it still be a crime? _I’m just discussing the nasty comments - falsifying a medical diagnosis is beyond the pale_ ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/66 "2015-06-26T13:47:13Z")
Does anyone think that maybe the reason they diagnosed him with fake hemorrhoid sis because they wanted a sly way to permanently brand him as a “pain in the ass”? That’s my take on it. And there’s just too much gross abuse here for me to do much but applaud the jury’s decision. I also agree that gallows humor and this aren’t equivalent. Assholes got what they deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/67 "2015-06-26T13:51:00Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > What if they were making these comments together in an office, post-op, miles away from the patient? Days later, while going over procedures completed that week? Would it still be a crime? Are the other elements of defamation present? Then yes. Defaming someone’s reputation actually does subject you to liability. That’s been true for centuries. Under American law, defamation usually requires the defamatory statement to be false. But even if you’re being truthful, you can be subject to other claims, like under invasion of privacy law, which includes actions for public disclosure of private embarrassing facts or making truthful statements that unfairly depict someone in a bad light. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/68 "2015-06-26T13:58:25Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > Comparing awful comments made about someone to rape, minimizes rape, IMO. > > What if they were making these comments together in an office, post-op, miles away from the patient? Days later, while going over procedures completed that week? Would it still be a crime? > > _I’m just discussing the nasty comments - falsifying a medical diagnosis is beyond the pale_ Rape can’t be minimized. I can compare it to eating cotton candy without reducing it even slightly. The person perpetrating the behavior is perpetrating the behavior whether its victim is aware the behavior occurred or not. They are a nasty bully and are not safe to have around vulnerable people. If the medical professional made these comments in an office, far from the patient, but around co-workers, I think they are creating a hostile work environment and encouraging an attitude of disrespect for the patients that could easily result in negative consequences for future patients. I would still want them thrown out of the profession, since the profession requires the complete opposite of that. What if a pediatric speech therapist liked to mock the stutters and lisps of unfavorite patients, but only did this at home? I wouldn’t call this a crime, but are they really suited for the job? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/69 "2015-06-26T14:07:43Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > What if a pediatric speech therapist liked to mock the stutters and lisps of unfavorite patients, but only did this at home? I wouldn’t call this a crime, but are they really suited for the job? I think your point is overall a good one. However, people feel what they feel, and often what they feel is overly mean & inappropriate when the subject is a particularly stressful one–that’s why black/gallows humor exists. It is possible to work into a joke something you can also be quite serious about, and that doesn’t mean you are unsuited to be a champion of that particular subject. Where it becomes a problem is when you become sloppy or jaded enough that you stop being aware of who is going to be the audience when you vent. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/70 "2015-06-26T14:39:36Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I think your point is overall a good one. However, people feel what they feel, and often what they feel is overly mean & inappropriate when the subject is a particularly stressful one–that’s why black/gallows humor exists. It is possible to work into a joke something you can also be quite serious about, and that doesn’t mean you are unsuited to be a champion of that particular subject. Where it becomes a problem is when you become sloppy or jaded enough that you stop being aware of who is going to be the audience when you vent. People feel how they feel, but when they act on those feelings, that is a choice, in this case, one that was inappropriate, unprofessional, and revealing that she should not be in this job. As an anesthesiologist, people’s lives are literally in her hands, so what standard for her behavior could be too high? I have no problem with gallows humor, but dark need not equal mean and she wasn’t funny at all either, the minimum standard for humor, so she is both a bad medical professional and a bad comedian. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/71 "2015-06-26T15:18:20Z")
I wonder if the anesthesiologist will lose her medical license, or get disciplined on some way. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/72 "2015-06-26T15:30:39Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Rape can’t be minimized. I can compare it to eating cotton candy without reducing it even slightly. I think that would definitely be minimizing it. Also, if my boss said to his wife “That dude, CGAv8r is a jerk, and a complete a-hole,” would that be the same as rape? He is my boss, so there is an imbalance of power, and maybe he’s a bully (or maybe I’m the bully, and he’s ranting about me because of it.) > [@](#): > > The person perpetrating the behavior is perpetrating the behavior whether its victim is aware the behavior occurred or not. They are a nasty bully and are not safe to have around vulnerable people. > > If the medical professional made these comments in an office, far from the patient, but around co-workers, I think they are creating a hostile work environment and encouraging an attitude of disrespect for the patients that could easily result in negative consequences for future patients. I would still want them thrown out of the profession, since the profession requires the complete opposite of that. > > What if a pediatric speech therapist liked to mock the stutters and lisps of unfavorite patients, but only did this at home? I wouldn’t call this a crime, but are they really suited for the job? I get your point that perhaps they aren’t suited for the job - but that is more in line with a professional board or their employer, not for the courts. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/73 "2015-06-26T15:33:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Are the other elements of defamation present? Then yes. Defaming someone’s reputation actually does subject you to liability. That’s been true for centuries. > > Under American law, defamation usually requires the defamatory statement to be false. But even if you’re being truthful, you can be subject to other claims, like under invasion of privacy law, which includes actions for public disclosure of private embarrassing facts or making truthful statements that unfairly depict someone in a bad light. Agree, but that’s a fine line - an off the cuff remark about someone having a disease (unfunny, but dark humor), is different than saying that they are a dishonest thief or something else that is defamatory. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/74 "2015-06-26T15:42:52Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > I think your point is overall a good one. However, people feel what they feel, and often what they feel is overly mean & inappropriate when the subject is a particularly stressful one–that’s why black/gallows humor exists. I’ll say it again. This was not black or gallows humor. It was vicious, contemptuous, and untruthful insulting of the character of a patient in one’s care during the course of treatment, in front of the patient, other caregivers, and third parties. This should never be passed off as acceptable or routine in any form. There is also reason to believe that contempt for a patient can directly or indirectly lead to substandard care. Indeed, in this case, it actually happened. The false diagnosis could have led to a future error in care, perhaps even a fatal error. > [@CGav8r](#): > > Agree, but that’s a fine line - an off the cuff remark about someone having a disease (unfunny, but dark humor), is different than saying that they are a dishonest thief or something else that is defamatory. Fine lines are what juries are meant to straddle. But you don’t think that a person’s own doctor who says in front of others that the patient has syphilis can harm his reputation, even if it is an off-the-cuff remark? ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/75 "2015-06-26T15:44:18Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > I think that would definitely be minimizing it. Also, if my boss said to his wife “That dude, CGAv8r is a jerk, and a complete a-hole,” would that be the same as rape? He is my boss, so there is an imbalance of power, and maybe he’s a bully (or maybe I’m the bully, and he’s ranting about me because of it.) > > I get your point that perhaps they aren’t suited for the job - but that is more in line with a professional board or their employer, not for the courts. Comparing two things is not saying they are equivalent. You are confusing “able to be compared” with “comparable.” Your boss making a negative comment to you can be compared to rape, but doing the comparison will yield few similarities. I’ve been raped while unconscious and feel free to compare it to whatever I want. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/76 "2015-06-26T16:04:11Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Comparing two things is not saying they are equivalent. You are confusing “able to be compared” with “comparable.” Not at all. Just comparing two things that are dissimilar undercuts an argument. > [@](#): > > Your boss making a negative comment to you can be compared to rape, but doing the comparison will yield few similarities. > > I’ve been raped while unconscious and feel free to compare it to whatever I want. Certainly - I’m very sorry to hear this. Sincerely. But I hope you aren’t making the point that your use of rape comparisons is now sancrosanct, due to you enduring something awful. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/77 "2015-06-26T16:26:34Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > Not at all. Just comparing two things that are dissimilar undercuts an argument. > > Certainly - I’m very sorry to hear this. Sincerely. > But I hope you aren’t making the point that your use of rape comparisons is now sancrosanct, due to you enduring something awful. You know, re-reading this, it sounds condescending to you, AnaMen. I’ll respectfully retract it, and show myself out the door on this thread. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/78 "2015-06-26T18:10:09Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > Not at all. Just comparing two things that are dissimilar undercuts an argument. > > Certainly - I’m very sorry to hear this. Sincerely. > But I hope you aren’t making the point that your use of rape comparisons is now sancrosanct, due to you enduring something awful. I’m saying that I don’t think rape is some special category surrounded by its own rules about when one can refer to it, lest a rape victim feel disrespected. > [@CGav8r](#): > > You know, re-reading this, it sounds condescending to you, AnaMen. I’ll respectfully retract it, and show myself out the door on this thread. My apologies. You have nothing to apologize for. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/79 "2015-06-26T20:51:53Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > **Less important** : it’s mean and unprofessional. > > **More important** : It contributes to the dehumanization of the patient, and it fosters a climate in which onlookers & participants come to accept it as “okay.” The dehumanization is allowed to breed and evolve and the potential grows that the docs will begin to actually abuse the patient or begin documenting truly damaging false diagnoses. Agreed. My history (well, mostly my first husband’s history) with doctors is that some are fantastic people who will treat you with respect and consideration, and some will treat you like dirt. The treating like dirt leads to not being taken seriously, not being listened to, and a general apathy for the welfare of the person. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403/80 "2015-06-27T01:57:46Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Does anyone think that maybe the reason they diagnosed him with fake hemorrhoid sis because they wanted a sly way to permanently brand him as a “pain in the ass”? No, I don’t think that was the case at all. I think that was the anesthetist’s way of punishing the patient for being annoying or a baby during pre-op. Nothing more, nothing less. Make a joke, whatever, but I think the doctor should have his license revoked (either for a set length of time or permanent) as punishment for signing off on the report. Another thing to remember is if the PT doesn’t have an ACA plan, his insurance rates (or the rates for his group plan) may (if it didn’t get caught) go up because of this, now, per-existing condition. > [@AnaMen](#): > > The fact that the victim wouldn’t typically know about the disgusting comments made while he was unconscious does not make it a victimless crime to behave this way. I’m not 100% sure about that. Would it have been victimless if the patient wasn’t even in the room while they made those comments? If they made them after hours when they were just talking (hey, did you see that rash, probably syphilis haha). He was, basically, ‘out of the room’, the only reason he even found out about that is because it was recorded. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think they should make them during the procedure (they can do whatever they want later), but if I go to up to a coworker in the backroom and say ‘the customer was a jerk’ and he says ‘yeah, he was kind of an ass to me too’ and that’s as far as it goes, who’s the victim? The customer doesn’t know it was said, the other employees don’t find out, it’s not nice, but I’m not sure that anyone was victimized. Also, just to be clear, because I don’t think everyone is catching it, the syphilis and TB comments were made TO the patient, (post op, so it’s possible he didn’t remember), but it’s hard to tell if he’s joking with them too. Based on what we have, it’s probably pretty easy for him to say in court "I was incredibly uncomfortable that they were making those jokes about my rash (etc)'. And, even if they claimed they were all joking the 'I wanted to punch you in the face pre-op and get you to man up (referring to him not taking the IV needle very well), that was wrong. Jokes are one thing, but that was treating him like dirt right to his face. To reiterate, my position is that anyone involved in the false diagnoses should face a malpractice suit and anyone involved in the STD/punch you in the face joking should face the ethics committee. Just as a start. I’m also curious if they’ll be allowed to stay on at the hospital/group while this is sorted out or get fired (in which case their unions will probably fight for them) or if they’ll resign right away. From their POV, their best bet is probably to stay on, face the legal battles and ethics committees and get help from their respective unions. If they do lose their jobs they can probably get picked up by smaller independent clinics as long as their work is generally respected and they can find away to convince those people that it was just a one time thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anesthesiologist-trashes-sedated-patient/723403.md?page=5)