# Angel 02/04/ 5x12 'You're welcome' **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 5, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580 "2004-02-05T00:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/41 "2004-02-06T05:39:09Z")
First to address a season 4 concern from Apos: The Beast was to get the FG on board with getting out Angelus. Angelus was for Jasmine to use in someway but Willow defeated the plan before it could be put in motion. Until Jasmine was out of Cordy she was vulnerable in far more ways, including not being able to make her plans work out perfectly. As for what’s to come I really have no clue, and that’s good. ME has shown they can pick up the pieces in situations like this and pull off some nifty stuff. I hope they do that. I also hope that they try out some new things. There are questions that I’d like to see their answers to but as long as they deliver something entertaining I can have fun comming up with answers to the stuff they didn’t get to. Although it is not always a great explanation to fall back on it is true that sometimes shit happens and your plans don’t work out. Generally those stories aren’t going to be part of the main show but given the scale the FG is working on now they are going to be drawing a lot of plans towards themselves and some of those are going to putter out from bad planning and other crap. The challenge presented to the FG allows for character exploration in terms of individual plots, personality development and the like. It also forms a good alternative to the random event episode. As for next week’s episode I do shudder, but I can believe the possibilty that we are seeing the WB trying to play up the similarity to Charmed using an episode with flashbacks. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/42 "2004-02-06T05:49:36Z")
> [@The Tim](#): > > As for next week’s episode I do shudder, but I can believe the possibilty that we are seeing the WB trying to play up the similarity to Charmed using an episode with flashbacks. It reminds me more of this episode of Roswell (also a former WB show) [http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-252/epid-8423/](http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-252/epid-8423/) ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/43 "2004-02-06T05:54:30Z")
You know, flashback episodes isn’t entirely unheard of in the Buffyverse. Including the fantastic episode **Are You Now or Have You Ever Been**. Several episodes over the AtS series has utilized flashbacks for the story, why is it a problem now? Was **Fool For Love** and **Darla** and **Orpheus** pointless one-off Charmed/Roswell ripoffs as well? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/44 "2004-02-06T05:56:14Z")
Note: I included **Fool For Love** in the _AtS_ list because um, it’s my favorite episode, Spike is on AtS now, and it was a big crossover event anyway. ---
**Author:** ![KismetRose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@KismetRose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KismetRose)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/45 "2004-02-06T08:05:40Z")
I realized that I had missed Lindsey quite a bit when I watched this episode, but I preferred the early Lindsey to this incarnation. I liked Lindsey in his old corporate role, caught between wanting to succeed and having his own moral limits. I even liked how Lindsey hated Angel enough to run him over repeatedly with his car; his attachment to Darla was just darling. What I always lamented is how the writers never seemed to know what to do with his character. I knew I was watching a character without much of a future. So, when the senior partners sucked him away at the end of this week’s Angel, I wasn’t the least surprised by such an anticlimactic exit. I was just left with the feeling that I would still miss Lindsey. Just like I had missed Cordelia, but I missed the old Cordelia most. I’ve seen season 1 of Buffy lately, when Cordelia was the Wicked Witch of Sunnydale High (albeit popular), and when her flippant jibes added some spice. I liked it best when she didn’t have visions from “the powers that be” - those powers being, in my estimation, a weak point in the show. I liked it when she wasn’t just another stock-loyal character; when she valued her own hide more than others. I realized when I saw Cordelia this week that even if she had stayed on the show, her presence wouldn’t have been the same. I was pleased with the way that she was written off, however. When she was telling Angel she had to move on, I was like: “Wait a minute, this is lame. There’s no real explanation here.” And then, a moment later, an explanation came that made sense. And it was pulled off in a dramatic, supernatural fashion. Cordelia was not shortchanged like other characters have been. And that’s fitting, since she’s the first member of Buffy’s gang to die. I was wondering about that, too. Are they planning a funeral for Cordie? It would be something if they could grab the Buffy people for it, because of course they would show. It would be really touching, since Cordelia was widely known and fairly young. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/46 "2004-02-06T09:05:02Z")
> [@Thea Logica](#): > > I’m actually not too bothered by the whole lack of a strong female lead thing. I’ve got, let’s see, James Marsters, Alexis Denisoff, J. August Richards, David Boreanaz and yes, even Andy Hallet to look at. While those guys are interesting charcters, good looking men ASF, they don’t get any hormones in motion for me. I can’t say that Cordy does either, but at any rate, there is a hint of stirage, which Fred, Harmony or Eve cannot produce. Now if Willow would show up… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/47 "2004-02-06T09:16:19Z")
> [@KismetRose](#): > > And that’s fitting, since she’s the first member of Buffy’s gang to die. Second, really, if you count Buffy. Third, if you count her twice. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/48 "2004-02-06T14:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > The sounds coming out of the TV were from level 4 of DK, the one with the elevators and the bouncing rivets. Having never played a console game since SNES I have no idea if that level was in the N64 version, however. I’m afraid I can’t enlighten you further on the matter, having never gotten past level 1. Not that I’m BITTER about it or anything. 😃 > [@](#): > > I realized that I had missed Lindsey quite a bit when I watched this episode. Ahh, Lindsey. Yes, he gets my motor started even more than Boreanaz. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/49 "2004-02-06T15:03:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Second, really, if you count Buffy. Third, if you count her twice. Fourth, if you count Angel. Fifth if you count Tara and sixth if you count Anya. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/50 "2004-02-06T15:15:27Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Fourth, if you count Angel. Fifth if you count Tara and sixth if you count Anya. Why Angel, because he was in the Hell dimension? I would count Spike though, tentatively. His “death” at the season finale was probably as much a death as any other. Even though he got better. ---
**Author:** ![petelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@petelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petelin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/51 "2004-02-06T16:46:05Z")
Not to put words in Kismet’s mouth, but I agreed, thinking of Buffy’s ‘Original’ gang. When the show started to take off in S2…Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles, Cordy and Oz. Those were good times. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/52 "2004-02-06T17:06:16Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > You know, flashback episodes isn’t entirely unheard of in the Buffyverse. Including the fantastic episode **Are You Now or Have You Ever Been**. Several episodes over the AtS series has utilized flashbacks for the story, why is it a problem now? Was **Fool For Love** and **Darla** and **Orpheus** pointless one-off Charmed/Roswell ripoffs as well? I rolled my eyes at the preview of next week’s show, too–and I’m a fan of the flashbacks. I can’t speak for others, but what started the jelly orbs shooting North in my sockets was that Spike and Angel are in a sub, one fighting for the Allies and the other for the Nazis. It’s too much of a cliché and, initially, nigh unbelievable considering Angel’s hermit past after regaining his soul. (Not to mention Spike not being one who subscribes to a Nazi-style ideology.) However it may seem initially, though, I do admit that the WB doesn’t ever quite get the previews right; in fact, if you take a look at the WB’s description of next week’s [show](http://thewb.com/Shows/Episode/0,8201,%7C%7C1790,00.html), it sounds a whole heck of a lot better than how the preview made it seem. Also, the preview didn’t remind me of _Charmed_ as much as it reminded me of _The Highlander_ television series: the hero seems to have been involved in EVERY epic battle of good versus evil throughout his lifetime. It got to the point where it was just damn silly–and I was hoping that _Angel_ would avoid this particular trapping of clichéd writing for an immortal character. But like I said, I have hopes that the episode won’t fall into that trap. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/53 "2004-02-06T17:06:21Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Why Angel, because he was in the Hell dimension? That, and Buffy consistently states that she killed him, even after he returned. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/54 "2004-02-06T21:28:14Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > I rolled my eyes at the preview of next week’s show, too–and I’m a fan of the flashbacks. > > I can’t speak for others, but what started the jelly orbs shooting North in my sockets was that Spike and Angel are in a sub, one fighting for the Allies and the other for the Nazis. It’s too much of a cliché and, initially, nigh unbelievable considering Angel’s hermit past after regaining his soul. (Not to mention Spike not being one who subscribes to a Nazi-style ideology.) > > However it may seem initially, though, I do admit that the WB doesn’t ever quite get the previews right; in fact, if you take a look at the WB’s description of next week’s [show](http://thewb.com/Shows/Episode/0,8201,%7C%7C1790,00.html), it sounds a whole heck of a lot better than how the preview made it seem. > > Also, the preview didn’t remind me of _Charmed_ as much as it reminded me of _The Highlander_ television series: the hero seems to have been involved in EVERY epic battle of good versus evil throughout his lifetime. It got to the point where it was just damn silly–and I was hoping that _Angel_ would avoid this particular trapping of clichéd writing for an immortal character. But like I said, I have hopes that the episode won’t fall into that trap. You’re right, the WB promo is way off base. I’ve been gritting my teeth sinced they aired it because I read the ep summary and _sigh_ Just five more days, just five more days… And I don’t think it’s out of line or unexpected to have two powerful vampires doing something during WW2…everybody else in the world was involved. Even if one was hermit and the other would laugh his ass off at the thought of joining the Nazis. But Angel wasn’t really a hermit than either. As we saw in \Are You Now…\ he had a really hard time interacting with people and didn’t come out of his shell much, but he wasn’t the living-off-rats-trembling-in-the-sewer guy until after he ate that guy in the diner. Also, I think the way they describe how Angel got involved next week makes sense too. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/55 "2004-02-07T00:18:49Z")
Funny, but what the promo for next week most reminded me of wasn’t _Charmed_ or _The Highlander_: it reminded me of _The X-Files_. That episode where Mulder finds himself on board a ship that disappeared on the eve of WWII, and it turns out there’s an American agent on board who coincidentally looks exactly like Scully. Whatever. It looks like it could be fun if done right, and considering the generally increasing number of good episodes this season, I’m willing to give it a shot. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/56 "2004-02-07T05:30:30Z")
I just watched my tape of the episode tonight, and I’m still in mourning. Cordy is dead, and Eve lives? It’s maddening. Meanwhile, Lindsey is in with the senior partners, which means he won’t be on my screen, scorching hot and shirtless. I could just cry. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/57 "2004-02-07T11:53:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Funny, but what the promo for next week most reminded me of wasn’t _Charmed_ or _The Highlander_: it reminded me of _The X-Files_. That episode where Mulder finds himself on board a ship that disappeared on the eve of WWII, and it turns out there’s an American agent on board who coincidentally looks exactly like Scully. Same here. That was a season 6 ep called _Triangle_. It also reminded me of an ep of Smallville from last season that was a murder-mystery set in the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/58 "2004-02-07T14:13:43Z")
So, Spike, who has been a **blonde** every time we’ve seen him in the 20th century, decides to go with **black hair** when he becomes a **NAZI**? I mean, I know, he wants to look all Teutonic and stuff, but he’s already an _Ubermensch_, for Pete’s sake! What, did the Germans ration all their peroxide for the experimental rocket planes or something? By the way, I know they’re not being subtle about this at all, but is anyone else worried that Gunn is _really_ going native? And does anyone see an awesome Gunn-vs.-Wes fight coming up? ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/59 "2004-02-07T14:26:19Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I would count Spike though, tentatively. His “death” at the season finale was probably as much a death as any other. Even though he got better. What? After he saved the world, did he get turned into a _newt_? ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580/60 "2004-02-07T18:15:05Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > And does anyone see an awesome Gunn-vs.-Wes fight coming up? \*\*\* bouncebouncebouncebouce\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* Goody! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-02-04-5x12-youre-welcome/227580.md?page=4)