# Angel - 03/03 - 5x16 - Shells **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401 "2004-03-03T23:07:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![petelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@petelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petelin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/61 "2004-03-10T14:56:47Z")
Thanks for the quote, Pepperlandgirl. Illyria is one of these “old ones” of which Giles is speaking, right? Also, Miller, I like your mindwipe speculation. It would be a good idea to have Illyria have access to those memories and to start asking quesitons. It could be like the Ben/Glory thing in Buffy. Once Spike realized it, and started telling the Scoobies, they didn’t get it, then the got it, but were confused by it, and eventually, they understood…kind of like their minds had to work it out. The mindwipe memories could be very similar to that. I always figured that there were little bottles in that room that Wes and Fred were in in Life of the Party (where they found Lorne’s sleep) that had “Wes’s Connor Memories”, “Fred’s Connor Memories”, etc… written on them, but I like your idea better. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/62 "2004-03-10T19:44:52Z")
> [@petelin](#): > > Thanks for the quote, Pepperlandgirl. Illyria is one of these “old ones” of which Giles is speaking, right? You’re welcome. And yeah, Illyria is an Old One. ---
**Author:** ![SuperNova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SuperNova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperNova)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/63 "2004-03-10T20:16:50Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] Okay, who’s Leslie? I know a Wesley and I know a Lindsay, Lilah, and Lorne but for the sake of me I can’t think of a Leslie. [QUOTE] A character I invented in my mind… (Yes, brain fart. I meant Lindsey. It happens. :rolleyes: ) ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/64 "2004-03-11T01:12:18Z")
Thank you too, **pepperlandgirl**. But see, it doesn’t say anything about humans driving the demons out, it just says that “in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man.” It could just as well have been half-breed demons that drove the others out, or an army of angels, or that the power of the old ones began to fade with time and they had to go into hibernation. I also note that the mythology contradicts itself, since Giles says that the last pure demon was the one who made the first vampire, but Illyria remembers vamps being around in her time. Of course, Giles and his books could be wrong, but I think I’ll just chalk this up as Whedon using his writer’s prerogative to reinterpret his universe any way he pleases. Which I don’t mind, since too much concern with continuity leads to Trekkiedom. Also, did I spell Illyria’s name right? If I did, then that means ancient Troy was named after the demon, and also ancient Albania (the Albanians claim they’re Illyrians, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/65 "2004-03-11T02:40:17Z")
> [@Sinungaling](#): > > I also note that the mythology contradicts itself, since Giles says that the last pure demon was the one who made the first vampire, but Illyria remembers vamps being around in her time. Of course, Giles and his books could be wrong, but I think I’ll just chalk this up as Whedon using his writer’s prerogative to reinterpret his universe any way he pleases. Which I don’t mind, since too much concern with continuity leads to Trekkiedom. Maybe she was talking about the neandertal vampires from Buffy season 7. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/66 "2004-03-11T02:49:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, someone mentioned the mindwipe. Here’s my thought. Assume that the mindwipe didn’t erase memories, it just made them inaccessible. Locked off in some corner of the brain, with false memories laid on top. Wes remembers getting his throat cut, but he thinks the Beast did it. Something like that. When Fred died, some of her memories were passed to Illyria, but all jumbled up - including the hidden ones, and she can access them more or less at random. She starts asking questions about Connor, Wesley gets curious, maybe bring Gunn in somehow to look up the records of the deal Angel struck with W&H in the Library of Demonic Congress… and BAM. Whole thing unravels. Wesley suddenly remembering his banishment from Angel Inc. would be a perfect incentive for him to forgive Gunn, the door is opened for a Vincent Kartheiser cameo, except now that he knows what a normal life is like, his character isn’t as sullen and bitchy. You are definately on to something here. Except I don’t think they actually let Connor have a “normal life.” I’m thinking that what Angel saw at the end of season 4 was an illusion. Someone mentioned in an earlier Angel thread that the thing in the basement of W&H might be Connor. I like that idea better. It’s more evil and fits them better. Might have been Lilah’s last shot at Angel before she went to hell (or wherever you go if W&H own your soul). ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/67 "2004-03-11T03:02:26Z")
> [@Sinungaling](#): > > Thank you too, **pepperlandgirl**. But see, it doesn’t say anything about humans driving the demons out, it just says that “in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man.” It could just as well have been half-breed demons that drove the others out, or an army of angels, or that the power of the old ones began to fade with time and they had to go into hibernation. > > I also note that the mythology contradicts itself, since Giles says that the last pure demon was the one who made the first vampire, but Illyria remembers vamps being around in her time. Of course, Giles and his books could be wrong, but I think I’ll just chalk this up as Whedon using his writer’s prerogative to reinterpret his universe any way he pleases. Which I don’t mind, since too much concern with continuity leads to Trekkiedom. > > Also, did I spell Illyria’s name right? If I did, then that means ancient Troy was named after the demon, and also ancient Albania (the Albanians claim they’re Illyrians, anyway). Heh, I wasn’t quoting Giles to prove me right, I was just bringing to the discussion what canon says. But I don’t think Joss is contradicting himself at all. Like **Miller** pointed out, she could have just been remembering the um…Turok-Han. They’re vampires, but obviously, a pure breed. Giles could have meant the last pure _vampire_ bit a human and became the vampires we would recognize today. ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/68 "2004-03-11T03:21:14Z")
I guess that would make sense. I wonder, was it the Super Vampires that the First Slayer hunted? Because that would certainly make her more badass. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/69 "2004-03-11T03:40:15Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Like **Miller** pointed out, she could have just been remembering the um…Turok-Han. They’re vampires, but obviously, a pure breed. Giles could have meant the last pure _vampire_ bit a human and became the vampires we would recognize today. I agree. Remember, she did refer to Spike and Angel as “half-breeds”. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/70 "2004-03-11T05:36:35Z")
> [@Sinungaling](#): > > I guess that would make sense. I wonder, was it the Super Vampires that the First Slayer hunted? Because that would certainly make her more badass. Probably not. It looked the Slayer was “created” long after the super vamps disappeared. (See: 7X15 Get It Done) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/71 "2004-03-26T16:59:46Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Off topic, but it is Angel news. [SMG open to working Angel now.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113380,00.html) I will withhold my comments for some other thread, but it is news to know where they might be going… Nope, [ain’t gonna happen](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=797&ncid=763&e=10&u=/eo/20040325/en_tv_eo/13782). Don’t know if this is a blow off by Joss or an actual scheduling conflict. ---
**Author:** ![kasuo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@kasuo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kasuo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/72 "2004-03-26T17:29:44Z")
Good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/73 "2004-03-26T18:01:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, someone mentioned the mindwipe. Here’s my thought. Assume that the mindwipe didn’t erase memories, it just made them inaccessible. Locked off in some corner of the brain, with false memories laid on top. Wes remembers getting his throat cut, but he thinks the Beast did it. My thoughts exactly. The FG clearly remembers some events; Cordy apologized to Wes for Lilah’s death, for example. Wes probably remembers it happening in a slightly different context. > [@Miller](#): > > Speaking of **Epiphany** , what was that big robed demon Angel killed? Wasn’t it strongly hinted that that was a senior partner? And what about the little girl the Beast killed? Might be, out of Wolf, Ram, and Hart, there’s only one left. That was a Klaynach demon, a form used by the SP to manifest itself in our dimension. Angel most likely didn’t kill the Partner at all, he just sent it back to where it came from. Mesektet, the creepy little girl in the white room, is dead. She was the conduit and not an actual senior partner. She was replaced by the big cat. As for the senior partners, we’ve only ever heard of one refered to by name. A Mr. Suvarta gave Lilah the tip on office furniture that secured her a promotion to head of Special Projects in “Deep Down.” OT: The Home Office is not on earth! That big speech that Holland gave to Angel was a giant pack of lies and Angel bought every bit of it and almost turned evil! It was the best fast one W&H ever pulled and no one ever gives them any credit for it. > [@Miller](#): > > As for Earth being a hell dimension, at the very least, it _used_ to be. Demons once ruled the Earth. That’s pretty much the definition of a hell dimension, no? Then the demons were overthrown, humans became the dominent species, and the Earth is a little less helly. Joss loves redemption stories: maybe Earth is an entire plane of exsistence that is going through the process of redemption. This was also strongly implied in the S3 episode where teenaged Connor first appears. I think Fred even says something to the effect that Connor must think of Earth as a hell dimension because he has no idea WTF is going on in the crazy streets of LA. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401/74 "2004-03-26T18:49:30Z")
I’ve been doing the dance of joy about no SMG since yesterday. I thought some people might be interested in this… > [@](#): > > Mutant Enemy President Chris Buchanan on the Bronze Beta > [http://www.betabronze.com/](http://www.betabronze.com/) > > Buchanan says: > (Fri Mar 26 00:49:13 2004) > > Hi, Chris Buchanan here from Mutant Enemy. Long time lurker, first time poster. > > Thought it was about time (OK, it’s way past time), to give all of the ANGEL fans an enormous shout out/thank you directly from Joss and all of us at Mutant Enemy. > > Your kind words, support and efforts (flowers, beanie babies, postcards, mobile billboards, adverts, etc., etc.) in the weeks since the cancellation of ANGEL was announced, have been darn near overwhelming. We really, really appreciate the love. > \*\* > It goes without saying here at the Bronze Beta, but I also wanted to let you all know that the Buffy/Angel-verse will never die. > > While we consider the possibility of Season 6 of ANGEL as remote as the discovery of WMDs in Iraq, Mutant Enemy already has plans for more tales from the world of ANGEL. I can’t comment on exactly what form they’ll take, but rest assured, it’s in the works. \*\* > > Thanks again to all of the fans, the “Save Angel” organizations, and your efforts taken in our behalf. > > You kids are the best! > > Buchanan Also, the cartoon is being shopped around again. They have 12 episodes done at this point, with ASH, AH, and NB providing voices. From what i understand, it’s set in S1 and S2 of BtVS and covers some of the more wacky moments from the hs years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-03-03-5x16-shells/232401.md?page=3)