# Angel 04/23/03 - Sacrifice (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 24, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724 "2003-04-24T00:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/41 "2003-04-24T15:33:38Z")
Damn good stuff. It’s worth noting that although the SWAT team didn’t use their rifles, apparently one of the Fang Gang snatched a rifle and used it against them: one of the wounds that Jasmine took in that final scene was almost certainly a bullet wound. One minor quibble: Angel’s final scene in Scary Bugman Land looked like a computer game cutscene. I know it’s a difficult scene to make, but I felt like I’d just completed a difficult level in some game or another. But since I like computer games, that’s only a minor quibble. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/42 "2003-04-24T15:39:17Z")
I just remembered something I was wondering about: Wesley figured out that blood made the key to the Buggy World work. Did he ever tell Angel that? Angel was rather distracted as Wesley solved it, and all I can remember is Wesley tossing the key to Angel just before Angel went through the portal. Will he know how to get back? ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/43 "2003-04-24T16:06:17Z")
**Beadalin** , I just checked the tape. Wesley hollered to Angel that he’d figured it out, but I didn’t hear him mention that it was the blood magic that made it work. Maybe the smear of Wesley’s blood will still be on the ball? Ok, and did anybody else think of “Sliders” there at the end? I’m ready for some resolution of this Jasmine bit. I’d begun to suspect that naming was going to be a key bit in defeating her. And there are really only 2 episodes left this season? It’s gonna be a wild ride, I think… ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/44 "2003-04-24T16:40:45Z")
The spidery-demon-thing was played by Jeff Ricketts. We’ve seen him before, but always as a human, not a demon. He played one of the sinister blue-gloved Feds searching for River on _Firefly_. He was also Weatherby, one of the Watchers sent to retrieve Faith, in fourth season _Buffy_ and first season _Angel_. **Ethilrist** , Jasmine is much smarter than Glory, so I doubt that’s the way they’re going. ---
**Author:** ![Lyllyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@Lyllyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyllyan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/45 "2003-04-24T17:03:25Z")
**elf6c** it matters how Connor sees Jasmine because if he does see her true face and is still enthralled, then he is working on the side of evil. It has been suggested that Connor does see the true face, but insists on staying with Jasmine because #1 - Jasmine is his daughter and he will do anything for his little girl #2 - He feels a sense of belonging, of family not previously felt with Angel and crew #3 - Jasmine treats him better than the others. #4 - As punishment, perhap subconciously, towards Angel for not being the father he should have been. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/46 "2003-04-24T18:28:08Z")
I too was _sure_ that spider-demon was the same guy who played the Master. Huh. Guess not. Regarding Connor and the Big Question: The scene where Jasmine heals him and eats those people was very interesting. She does the mystical gown thing, and opens her eyes to see Connor looking at her. She asks what he thinks (or something), and he says, “You’re…indescribable.” Not beautiful, but “indescribable”. I think that’s significant. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/47 "2003-04-24T18:37:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*It’s worth noting that although the SWAT team didn’t use their rifles, apparently one of the Fang Gang snatched a rifle and used it against them: one of the wounds that Jasmine took in that final scene was almost certainly a bullet wound. \*\* Are you sure? Looked more like a simple puncture wound to me (run through with one of their spears). ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/48 "2003-04-24T18:42:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lyllyan \* > \*\ ***elf6c** it matters how Connor sees Jasmine because if he does see her true face and is still enthralled, then he is working on the side of evil. It has been suggested that Connor does see the true face, but insists on staying with Jasmine because > > #1 - Jasmine is his daughter and he will do anything for his little girl > > #2 - He feels a sense of belonging, of family not previously felt with Angel and crew > > #3 - Jasmine treats him better than the others. > > #4 - As punishment, perhap subconciously, towards Angel for not being the father he should have been. \*\* That is the issue, whether it matters _to Conner_ what she looks like. Although I wonder if anything does. He killed that innocent girl. He has repeatedly watched Jasmine eat her innocent followers, and even after exposure he (a) tried to reveal the Gang’s location, and (b) led the troops to the tunnels and led the attack against the gang. Even after Cordy disappeared, he still led the troops into the sewers. So the open question is-- does it matter? And might the prophesy come true after all? ---
**Author:** ![Lyllyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@Lyllyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyllyan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/49 "2003-04-24T18:58:24Z")
I think all that matters to Connor, is Connor. You are right **elf6c**. If he _has_ been un-spelled, then the previous comment will prove to be true. OTOH, his mind has been messed with by Darla, Cordy, Angel, Holtz and Jasmine. Could be he doesn’t even know, or care, what to do anymore, as long as he feels he is of some worth to _somebody, anybody_. Lets hope the prophesy does come true and puts Connor out of his misery. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/50 "2003-04-24T19:13:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lyllyan \* > \*\ ***js\_ africanus** - looks like you caught the tail end on “Angel”. > > Angel, Lorne, Wesley, Gunn and Fred (good guys) are in a small room…\*\* Thanks for the help! ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/51 "2003-04-24T21:07:29Z")
I just re-watched the episode, and I’m not entirely clear on something. Why was Angel reluctant to go through the portal, and encouraged the others to go through instead? And then why did Fred’s comment about heart getting in the way change his mind? ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/52 "2003-04-24T21:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Why was Angel reluctant to go through the portal, and encouraged the others to go through instead? > > And then why did Fred’s comment about heart getting in the way change his mind? He’d had very little time to understand what was on the other side and what the purpose in going through would be. More importantly, Angel is the strongest member of their group, and views himself as their champion and protector. He knew that leaving them would leave them more vulnerable to Jasmine’s hordes outside the door. Which leads to Fred’s comment… Angel had been trying to put aside all tender feelings for the greater good. He beat his own son to save his friends. They’re out to save the world, and interpersonal attachments could jeapordize all of humanity. He was reluctant to go through the portal because he knew that his friends would pay a heavy price for it, but NOT to go through could cause greater damage (and incidentally make him a hypocrite). So he hesitated, and then went when Fred made him realize that he couldn’t afford to stay and protect his friends with the world’s fate hanging in the balance. ---
**Author:** ![joshmaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@joshmaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joshmaker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/53 "2003-04-24T21:53:08Z")
The one problem I had with this episode is that the deus ex machina solution to getting rid of Jasmine felt contrived to me. Luckily everything else was so amazing I don?t really care. Also, does anyone else get the feeling that Conner is being set up to redeem himself by taking down Jasmine? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baldwin \*See, now I’m wishing I watched this show, because it sounds really cool. Missed out on “Buffy”, too. I just hate to get into something in the middle. Both Buffy and Angel are out on DVD, and I bet you could rent the first season if you wanted to see them in order. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/54 "2003-04-24T22:59:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by joshmaker \* > \*\*The one problem I had with this episode is that the deus ex machina solution to getting rid of Jasmine felt contrived to me. \*\* I don’t see it as a god of the machines resolution. Names are powerful in much of the world’s mysticism. Knowing someone’s name often gives you power over them. ---
**Author:** ![Salieri2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Salieri2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salieri2)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/55 "2003-04-25T00:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lyllyan \* > \*\*I think all that matters to Connor, is Connor… > Lets hope the prophesy does come true and puts Connor out of his misery. \*\* And puts him out of OURS. Frankly I find Connor’s only redeeming quality the fact that he’s not Dawn. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/56 "2003-04-25T00:59:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Salieri2 \* > \*\*And puts him out of OURS. Frankly I find Connor’s only redeeming quality the fact that he’s not Dawn. \*\* I think the fact he is not like Dawny can be credited to Vincent. He does as much possible with that role as one can. He plays it as an immature guy, but one who is withdrawn because of his experience growing up. At first, Connor was a terrible concept and Vincent had trouble with it; now, I like his addition to the show. ---
**Author:** ![torben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@torben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torben)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/57 "2003-04-25T01:13:06Z")
I really liked this episode. I too thought that the actor playing the Monster of the Week was Mark Metcalf. The whole blood magic thing was a pretty cool concept. Just like there was non-oral communication before the spoken word there was blood magic before spoken spells. Cool idea. I was a little surprised at how willing Angel was to dispatch of his son for the greater good when he had a much harder time with Cordelia. The plot development and character development was once again excellent in this episode. I just wish Buffy was this good. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/58 "2003-04-25T02:19:26Z")
I think Connor will not survive the season; the prophecy will come true. Others among the regulars will die as well; my money’s on Lorne or Fred. Or both. I wonder what became of Cordy? I’m sure she’ll be back next season, so I wonder where she’ll be retrieved from? ---
**Author:** ![joshmaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@joshmaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joshmaker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/59 "2003-04-25T03:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > I don’t see it as a god of the machines resolution. Names are powerful in much of the world’s mysticism. Knowing someone’s name often gives you power over them. It is not the “true name” part that bothered me, but rather that they just happened to stumble into the demon who just happened to have the information they needed and just happened to have a portal to another dimension, etc. They whole thing felt a little artificial to me. I think it would have been better if the solution came from something the audience already knew about, such as Cordy, Conner, Jasmine’s blood, something Angelus said, etc. Even so, that demon was really cool. In fact everything in this episode, nay, this entire season has been so damn good that I don’t really care if that particular incident was a little artificial. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > I don’t see it as a god of the machines resolution. Names are powerful in much of the world’s mysticism. Knowing someone’s name often gives you power over them. It is not the “true name” part that bothered me, but rather that they just happened to stumble into the demon who just happened to have the information they needed and just happened to have a portal to another dimension, etc. They whole thing felt a little artificial to me. I think it would have been better if the solution came from something we the audience already knew about, such as Cordy, Conner, Jasmine’s blood, something Angelus said, etc. With that said however, that demon was really cool. In fact everything in this episode, nay, this entire season has been so damn good that I don’t really care if that particular incident was a little artificial. P.S. Did anyone else get a feeling of déjà vu from the ending of this episode, with regards to a certain episode of Buffy? ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724/60 "2003-04-25T04:39:49Z")
No, but I got a feeling of déjà vu from the last half of your post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-04-23-03-sacrifice-spoilers/170724.md?page=4)