# Angel - 05/07/03 - Home - Season Finale (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769 "2003-05-07T21:37:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/61 "2003-05-09T03:03:53Z")
**Miller** : > [@](#): > > There can be a huge age difference between siblings But generally not between twins. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/62 "2003-05-09T03:55:56Z")
Right, sorry, missed the word “twin” in the original post. I stand by the prodigy thing, though. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/63 "2003-05-09T06:59:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\* Odds are, Joss just took a shine to the actor_\* Well, he _was_ very good in CWDP, so I’m not surprised. It was one of few really bright moments this year on Buffy. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/64 "2003-05-09T08:25:27Z")
Hmmm, 10 out of 10 everywhere… Why is it that - most recently - I hate the episodes everyone else loved? _sigh_, oh well. Here’s what I hate about the episode: Connor is not even Angel’s real son. His real son is still a baby, trapped with Captain Daniel Holtz in kortozz (sp?). The woman, who closed the dimensional rift, explained that it was a rift to a parallel universe and that’s why the connor in question was so old. But it also means it was just an alternate son of Angel and not the real deal. So why should the Champion allow Wolfram and Hart to corrupt him just so that some alternate reality person can live a re-written life? If angel was so keen on forcing false memories on people, he should have been content with what Jasmine has done, instead of making a deal with Wolfram and Hart. The whole finale really rubbed me the wrong way… Unless of course a potential next season has the fang gang as the big bads and angel gets staked in the end. If that’s the big plan here, then I guess I can “live” with the season finale. Me? I’d rather like to see the real Daniel Holtz and Connor return 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/65 "2003-05-09T10:19:20Z")
Opti, I’ve been very much of the opinion that Connor is his age because of time differences between dimensions. As in, he lived the full 16 years in the hell dimension but it only lasted a few months of our time. There is no other or alternate Connor, he’s the real deal. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/66 "2003-05-09T11:35:36Z")
He isn’t the real deal, because the woman said that the rift wasn’t a passage to Kortozz (still sp?), but to the Kortozz of an alternate reality. And Captain Holtz isn’t dead, damnit! 😉 No, but seriously, did they ever mention anything about a time difference between dimensions this time? Sure, that was the case when Angel was in hell for a hundred years, but I am positive that the explanation this time was an alternate reality and not a difference in how time is passing. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/67 "2003-05-09T11:38:16Z")
One more thing about continuity: Didn’t that Sarjahn (sp?) guy mention that he was going to be killed by Connor? When is that going to happen if Connor’s destiny is altered into not being Angel’s son? The whole episode doesn’t wrap up anything, but leaves the viewer hanging with even more questions. Grrr! ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/68 "2003-05-09T12:58:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Big\_Norse \* > \*\ ***Gaspode** there has been a flurry of newspaper coverage this past week about Angel and Buffy because of the definite end of the latter and the possible end of the prior. > > I had a co-worker come to me today and tell me (he knows I’m a fan and has in the past put the shows down as juvenile) that he misunderstood the shows and considering what the press has been saying lately he kind of wishes he had caught some of them. > > Specifically, both USA Today and the Chicago Tribune TV critics have said good things about the shows and their writers. Angel came out on top of the USA Today’s poll of shows in danger that people most want to see renewed. \*\* As well as the Washington Post, and the TVGuide TV critics. My bet is it gets renewed for one more season. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/69 "2003-05-09T13:30:08Z")
And Otto, if that e-mail was something other than a tape, could you let me know via e-mail as well? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/70 "2003-05-09T16:45:58Z")
Some late, idle speculation, in connection with this ending and the reaction from W&H - The prophecy has been that Angel is a major player in the Apocalypse. I wouldn’t say that ME has been adhering very well with christian mythology, but the Apocalypse is the ultimate fight between good an evil. Of course, in the Jossverse the lines are always blurred. And having ona apocalypse in L.A. and one in Sunnydale… But let’s not go there. What I’m getting at - are we sure that Jasmine was a _renegade_ PTB? Most descriptions I’ve read about paradise and life after Armageddon tells a tale, not that different from what Jasmine was trying to achieve on Earth - eternal _mindless_ bliss. Utopias in SciFi also have a tendency to become inbred, dull and lacking… zest? So was this the event that the prophecy was telling about? Andf did Angel and the Fang Gang inadvertently side with the ‘evil’ side? And who is the true enemy? The setup for a fifth season is intrigueing. If they can maintain this quality, it would be very, very interesting and possibly very profound. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Norse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/big_norse/32/9954_2.png) [@Big\_Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/71 "2003-05-09T17:39:12Z")
I was thinking that Angel did side with evil. Lilah seemed happy that they killed Jasmine and “ended world peace.” My idea is that the true enemy is the First. With Angel crossing over to Buffy he’ll be fighting it, but (my WAG) not defeating it. They’ll get Caleb and drive the First underground. So that he can rise again and be a serious threat for next season. With Angel now equiped with a serious office and huge staff, he’ll need a serious threat to have to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Slindorff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Slindorff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slindorff)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/72 "2003-05-09T20:56:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Big\_Norse \* > \*\*I was thinking that Angel did side with evil. Lilah seemed happy that they killed Jasmine and “ended world peace.” > > —8\<------snip-----8\<----- \*\* I think she was just playing with their heads…getting them off-balance with second-guessing themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Norse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/big_norse/32/9954_2.png) [@Big\_Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/73 "2003-05-09T21:17:17Z")
Lilah? playing with their heads?! naahhhh, never! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/74 "2003-05-09T21:20:33Z")
**Optihut** , I’m afraid you’re mistaken. I dug around on the 'net and found this transcript from the episode after Connor comes back, and the gang brings in the wierd reality shifting woman, Meerna. Here’s the dialogue from when she closes the portal that Connor came through: Fred: So, you think you can close it, then? Meerna: Oh, I’m sure. That’s not the worry. Fred: You have worry? Meerna: How did it open in the first place? There are no portals to Quor-toth, and for good reason. It’s not a place anyone should ever go. Fred: I… If there aren’t any portal’s, what is it? Meerna: A tear in reality. Big cosmic no-no. Something punched its way through. Something I really don’t wanna meet. It’s not an “alternate reality” except in the sense that any non-Earth dimension is an “alternate reality.” I think the difference between a “portal” and a “tear in reality” is like the difference between going through a door and kicking a hole in the wall, but either way, grown-up Connor is the same person as baby Connor. In general, the evidence that there are parrallel Buffyverses is iffy. Arguably, Anya created an alternate reality in “The Wish” and “Dopplegangland” on Buffy, but even there it’s not certain if its a parrallel reality or this one magically altered by Anya’s powers. On the other hand, the idea that time runs faster in other dimensions is well established: Angel in Hell between seasons two and three, Buffy in Hell in the first episode of the third season, Buffy in heaven after season five, and I believe some direct mention of it when the Fang Gang all trooped off to Pylea. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/75 "2003-05-10T19:15:36Z")
So, Angel will still remember Connor, but nobody else on the show does. OK, I’m spoiled for BtVS through the finale, so I’m going to throw out some serious spoiler-based speculation. If you don’t want to be spoiled for Buffy, do not highlight it. [spoiler] OK, so Spike is, um, no longer with us (or at least with Buffy and the Scoobies) at the end of the finale, but James Marsters is slated to do at least ten eps of Angel if it’s renewed, and looks like it will be - well, first I heard ten, then sixteen… So, Angel is not only going to have to deal with the loss of his son but also with the fact that when he handed over the amulet to Buffy, he also handed over his shansu priveleges… Spike is going to come back either as a human or as Something Completely Different. Either way, I think he’ll know about Connor. I mean, gotta give Angel _one_ person he can talk to about it, since it seems that none of the other characters will remember him ever having had a son. I mean, if he has to carry that angst all alone, it’s kind of hard for the viewers to see the angst, unless they just show lots of Connor flashbacks then show Angel being all broody, and Angel is always all broody anyway.[/spoiler] If he was going to have W&H pull a reverse Dawn, I wonder why he didn’t just have them wipe his own memory, too. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/76 "2003-05-10T19:35:22Z")
No, I think W&H really were glad about Jasmine’s demise. If you think about it, it’s not that their firm is just out and out evil: they’re lawyers FOR evil. What they want is to have evil around so that they can be employed. Jasmine really WAS a threat to them (hey, her minions wiped out their LA office!) However, that’s not to say that Jasmine wasn’t also bad news. She just wasn’t the sort of bad news that W&H could make any headway with (there would be no evil thoughts, no clients) Optihut, you’re in major denial. Holtz is soooooo dead. ---
**Author:** ![medstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@medstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medstar)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/77 "2003-05-10T19:53:01Z")
I was wondering if someone could explain, _very slowly and carefully_, exactly how Angel changed Conner’s reality. I remember he knocked Conner out and released the hostages. I remember the knife coming down and then . . . what? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/78 "2003-05-10T20:00:31Z")
Many thanks, **The Gaspode** and **Beadalin**. I viewed the ep earlier today and was duly impressed. If AtS is not renewed for the upcoming season I will not be held responsible for my actions. I haven’t wanted another season of a show this much since _Twin Peaks_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/79 "2003-05-10T20:03:15Z")
**medstar** : And then nothing. The actual ritual or whatever it was that changed everyone’s memories wasn’t shown onscreen. Exactly how it was done wasn’t important, at least to this season’s story arc. God only knows what’ll happen next season; further details may become available at that time. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769/80 "2003-05-10T20:57:50Z")
Don’t mention it **Otto**. Only glad to be able to help out a fellow fan and Doper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-05-07-03-home-season-finale-spoilers/173769.md?page=3)