# Angel - 10/01/03 - conviction (spoilers in box) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 1, 2003, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884 "2003-10-01T08:13:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stainz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Stainz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stainz)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/41 "2003-10-02T17:43:22Z")
Do you get the “Space” channel in your area, or is it just Canadian? Anyway, it shows “Angel” on Thursday nights at 6 pm Pacific Time, and is usually pretty current. Worth checking? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/42 "2003-10-02T17:46:26Z")
Since many of the new slayers will likely do a Faith and become bad, having a bunch of them isn’t necessarily going to improve things. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/43 "2003-10-02T18:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The series on the whole seems to be headed away from being plot-driven and more towards a character-based action/comedy. Which can be a good thing, now that the characters are getting more fleshed out. - One reason AtS might turn more into a “Monster of the Week” format is because one of the conditions for the WB to renew it was a MAJOR ratings improvement. They want the Smallville audience, and it’s easier to get an audience if they can tune in anytime and be able to follow what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/44 "2003-10-02T18:14:26Z")
Eve. Man, another woman whose looks eats me up with jealousy… 😃 I knew she looked vaguely familiar, but I can’t really remember her chracter from BP. Was she the student/stripper or the one sleeping with the ugly teacher? I like her so far too since she’s not all that nice, and she makes up a _little_ for them removing the female characters with strong personalites from the show. Don’t get me wrong, I like Fred too. She’s sweet. But I can’t see her kicking much butt -despite growing some backbone the end of last season - or being much of a bitch even when necessary. Over all I liked the episode a lot. It worried me a little that Angel didn’t react to the use of the phrase “wet-work” though, and say that’s not how he wanted things done. Doesn’t he know what that means? Shouldn’t he have known what those people would have in mind as a solution to the problem? eh. How did Angel and co get the amulet? Maybe I’m spacing it and Buffy gave it to him in the BtVS finale, but… And I’d like to disagree about the funniest Harmony line. “Blondiebear” was not as fun as: A: " You’re my secretary?" H: " Personal assistant." A: " I could kill you." H: " Secretary is fine." Now _that_ exchange made me laugh out loud ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/45 "2003-10-02T18:25:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\*Why would Angel be pointless if the world is fully of Slayers? Granted, I haven’t seen every single episode, but isn’t he a “noble vampire on the quest of redemption”? IOW, even if there are hundreds of girls out there saving the world, _his_ job isn’t done. \*\* Plus they had done a pretty good job of killing off a bunch of them too. Given the size of the planet and the probable disbursal of the slayers, in addition to their lack of training, knowledge or supervision from the Watchers council “Blooooooooown up sir!” It would seem that while positive- the impact of the activate salyers might not be too much-- after all most of them still don’t know about vampires ect-- just like Buffy didn’t in the beginning, i.e. lots of super-powered lawyers, dentists, soccer moms and business owners. Not too many actual Slayers outside the small ring of relatively untrained Slayers from Sunnydale. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/46 "2003-10-02T18:53:16Z")
W & H got the amulet in the mail, from Sunnydale. I think it was charmed to return to it’s owners, as W & H sorta wanted it to be Buffy trapped inside. Best line: “You’ve turned evil quicker than I thought.” ---
**Author:** ![petelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@petelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petelin)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/47 "2003-10-02T19:09:37Z")
If the amulet were “Charmed” to return to W&H, why would it have shown up in the mail with a handwritten address, and be addressed to Angel? Also, how could Buffy have been in it? Didn’t the wielder need to be a souled vampire? I’m very interested to see who sent the amulet to Angel. I’ve heard that they will address the fact that there are now hundreds of slayers running around later this season, so Angel is still very much a part of the Buffyverse. And Pepperlandgirl and Gaspode, I’m going to have to agree with Pepperlandgirl’s comments about Spike and his role. I don’t know how to do spoiler boxes though, so I won’t say anymore. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/48 "2003-10-02T19:33:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Didn’t the wielder need to be a souled vampire? I’m very interested to see who sent the amulet to Angel No, it needed to be a souled _champion_. Remember, Buffy told Spike “It’s for a champion” and his face fell and he took his hand back (because hey, he’s not the bloody champion of the bloody people) and then she gave it to him anyway, choosing him as her champion. “Been called a lot of things…” ---
**Author:** ![petelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@petelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petelin)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/49 "2003-10-02T19:41:17Z")
Ahhh, you are right, pepperlandgirl. I guess I havn’t watched “Chosen” recently enough. Good catch. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/50 "2003-10-02T19:54:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SolGrundy \* > Eh. Not a bad episode, and I’ll definitely keep watching, but it felt to me as if they’d lost a lot of steam from last season and are getting back to the stuff that made me hate the series in the first place. Except that I actually like the character of Lorne now. > > The more I see of “written & directed by Joss Whedon” material, the more it just seems to be LOOK HOW CLEVER I AM. There’s some good stuff in there, sure, but he needs to rein in the attitude a bit. > > The series on the whole seems to be headed away from being plot-driven and more towards a character-based action/comedy. Which can be a good thing, now that the characters are getting more fleshed out. > > And was it just my imagination, or just that one episode, or did one of the “driving forces” of the show get squeezed out? The end just said “Executive Producer Joss Whedon” when I could’ve sworn they used to give some other guy the big credit. David Greenwalt left. In fact a bunch of people left and some transfered from BtVS. I can’t remember exactly which, but the online Buffy guides and AICN have the info. Regarding JW as writer/director (semi-spoilers for next week, nothing specific about the plot): JW plays the fairy of misdirection and waves the Magic Wand at least twice too many, IMO. It got annoying. I liked last year because it _was_ plot driven. Before that, Ats was a fairly good popcorn show. I liked it. It was fun, but not _special_. The thing that floored me about S.4 was when I realized that all the time I was annoyed with the writers, I was _supposed_ to be annoyed. They wanted me to hate stupid Connor and they wanted me to think that Evil-Cordy was icky. The way they took likable characters and turned them around, how they twisted the concept of good and evil with Jasmine, was very good and intelligent tv. I understand if they need to do stand alones, b/c the network wants it that way. But I can’t help but think that this is going to be like BtVS S.6. I hope I’m wrong. > [@](#): > > I knew she looked vaguely familiar, but I can’t really remember her chracter from BP. Was she the student/stripper or the one sleeping with the ugly teacher? I stopped watching when they started singing, but she was the student who had a major crush on Harry Senate the very first episodes, and who kissed him, causing all kinds of trouble. And regarding my ongoing debate with **Pepperlandgirl** , now getting support from **Petelin** 😛 We have to agree to disagree. I see what you’re saying, Pepper, about him bering the voice of reason. But it was just more of the banter 'tween Angel and Spike, and for me, it’s getting old. I understand the need to establish him on this show, and have an episode dealing with that. However, the end, where his real fear is being shown, to us, the audience, was too much designed to be a cliffhanger. I’m sorry, but I feel that’s pandering to the Spike-fans. It should have been a lot earlier in the episode, when he first started fading in and out, and there should have been a cliffhanger dealing with the ensemble. For me, it was playing for the gallery, and his prescence didn’t really add anything to the show (though I like to see him there, now if only there could be some quality Willow time) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@mug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mug)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/51 "2003-10-02T21:04:43Z")
I have to say, I thought the way Angel killed that guy in a school room was icky, and left me with a sick feeling. I don’t really like Harmony, but loved her quick recovery at Cordy’s illness. **Pepperlandgirl** , thanks for the heads up that the voice on the phone was Joss, I didn’t know that! ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/52 "2003-10-02T21:41:31Z")
**mug** , in the original sides, Angel ripped the guy’s head off. I think that would have been cooler. Gaspode I think it was clear through the entire episode that something was off with Spike. The first time he disappeared, Fred asked where he went and he immediately changed the subject. The rant about how fair it was that he saved the world and got shafted… And of course they’re going to pander to the Spike fans. They want us to stick around. If we don’t have a reason to stick around for Spike, we leave, the ratings fall, and the show is pushed off to Friday night to die a slow death. The WB has made it clear that they have until the 4th episode to show really strong numbers or they’ll be sorry. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/53 "2003-10-02T22:03:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stainz \* > \*\*Do you get the “Space” channel in your area, or is it just Canadian? Anyway, it shows “Angel” on Thursday nights at 6 pm Pacific Time, and is usually pretty current. Worth checking? \*\* I don’t get a Space channel. Unless you mean the NASA channel. ?? I’ll come back if I hear that WGN will re-run it, but it does look doubtful. I wish I had thought to check later on. Phooey. Great recaps though. I really don’t feel like I’ve missed much. You guys know what’s important. Angel still dressing all dark? Does he still have his long leather coat? He **does** love that coat. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/54 "2003-10-02T22:29:06Z")
The Spike fans may not be enough to matter, **pepperlandgirl** , if last night is any indication. The ratings are in for last night, and they don’t [look good](http://www.mediaweek.com/mediaweek/columns/column_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1991763) for Tall, Dark and Hairgel. _Angel_ beat its UPN competition, _Jake 2.0,_ but it only held on to 66% of _Smallville_’s audience. That’s not nearly good enough to stay on the air. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/55 "2003-10-03T00:07:42Z")
Actually **Fiver** compared to _last_ year’s ratings, it was a substantial improvement. If they can stay there or go up, Captain Forehead will be in good shape. In fact, last’s nights ratings were better than all of BtVS last year—I know BtVS was on a different network, but just as a point of comparison. And it depends on how you look at it > [@](#): > > from [www.zap2it.com](http://www.zap2it.com) > > “Angel,” 3.8/6, held on to most of its lead-in to keep The WB in fifth, beating out “Jake 2.0” on UPN. > > From [www.mediaweek.com](http://www.mediaweek.com) > > At 9 p.m., however, although the season premiere of the WB’s Angel (#5: 4.4/ 7) beat UPN’s fading Jake 2.0 (#6: 2.6/ 4) by 69 percent, retention of just 66 percent from Smallville is alarming. It’s funny that one report says Angel held onto most of the Smallville audience and the other report says that the retention rate was alarming. I mean, 2 out of 3 viewers aint bad. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/56 "2003-10-03T12:34:22Z")
**Lisa’s Shallow Report** Gunn – has the dude been doing Atkins or what? He is significantly smaller than last year. Personally, I prefer him with more weight on. I do like his new career and new attitude. Fred - she looked really good last night. Eve - bugged me. Is she supposed to? I didn’t feel any chemistry with her and Boreanaz. Much more with Gwen and Angel last year. Lilah - where is she? Is she on or off the show? Angel - looks like he’s lost some weight, which was good. Like his new haircut. Harmony - she’s really short! I think she’ll make a good foil for the seriousness of the show now that Cordy is in la la land. I always liked Harmony on Buffy, though I thought she and Spike were on the outs. Last I saw her, she was burning his clothes at the university and getting into an embarrassingly sissy fight with Xander. (I’m a little behind in my Buffyverse) Spike - Looking good, of course. I have no idea how they’re going to work him into the show. I thought the show was great without him and certainly hope his presence doesn’t Fonzify the show. However, if he draws viewers… ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/57 "2003-10-03T12:56:57Z")
This may be a movie-geek observation, but I really liked the way the shots were composed in this episode, from the opening long tracking shot where several characters traded the focus, to the final deep shot, arranged to allow Harmony to pop into the background to deliver her _gag de grace_. ---
**Author:** ![AmericanMaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@AmericanMaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmericanMaid)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/58 "2003-10-03T13:22:09Z")
Well, this episode wasn’t at all Spike-centric. I stand corrected! But it was extremely talky. It really felt like a pilot for a completely different show. I might check out next week’s episode. After that, Angel won’t be appointment TV for me anymore. Which works out great since I’ll have more time for grad school stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/59 "2003-10-03T13:32:43Z")
Did people notice during those little flashing images that segue between scenes there was a black panther flashed before Gunn’s scene in the doctor’s office? The biggest disappointment so far is certainly Eve. When you introduce a new character who is supposed to be a badass, you shouldn’t make it look like that’s what you’re trying to do. This was pushed way too hard and it fell flat. So far, Harmony is OK. She’s far less offensive now, but they glossed over why she only drinks pig’s blood now, did she have a revelation or something? I’m pretty optimistic so far. They didn’t ignore the consequences of last year’s big show, did something unexpected yet useful with Gunn, and introduced a few new and interesting characters. ---
**Author:** ![heater2000ca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@heater2000ca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heater2000ca)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884/60 "2003-10-03T13:34:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AuntiePam \* > \*\*Angel still dressing all dark? Does he still have his long leather coat? He **does** love that coat. \*\* Yes, he does - and so do we. He didn’t actually wear that coat, that I could see, in this episode. (I could be wrong, feel free to correct me, anyone.) But, he did have the most incredible suit on … very sharp. And the suit jacket was that slightly longer style, almost mid-thigh length. Very nice. It had a slight pinstripe in it. But my favourite part was the shirt underneath - it was black, of couse, but it was slightly see thru, and had subtle tuxedo ruffles. It was hot! (I know, I know, I spent way too much time watching fashion on this show!) I wasn’t too thrilled with Angel’s new hair cut, but I think I can get used to it. Gunns’ hair is kind of weird too, but I’m sure I’ll get used to that too. OK, thus ends the very girly-like fashion analysis of this week’s episode of _Angel_. I’m not sure about the new career possibilities for Gunn, I’m worried that it’ll change the character a lot, and I liked him the way he was last year. I agree with **PunditLisa** that there was no chemistry between Eve and Angel - or Eve and anybody. I miss Gwen and Lilah. Generally, glad it’s back, and I hope the humor and excitement from the first episode are continued for the rest of the season. I’m also glad the ratings look good … depending on who analyzes them. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-10-01-03-conviction-spoilers-in-box/204884.md?page=4)