# Angel 2/25 - A hole in the world - spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 26, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203 "2004-02-26T00:39:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/61 "2004-02-27T14:35:06Z")
3/4 of the episode was stellar, 1/4 was a bit too over the top. Those parts (with Wes and Fred towards the end) needed a bit of editing. In shorter doses they would have been great, but they dragged on and on and on. The Lorne stuff, and the Spike and Angel stuff was great though. I have to admit, having yet another demon/big bad spring from one of the FG was a bit of a let down. BTW: its was my impression, that on top of the horrible chance of infection, there never was enough time to move the container to England, before our blue haired mama popped loose. BTW: a caveman is nothing special, and likely is malnourished and may be injured or have chronic problems (remember a lifetime of uneven food supply, a rough life in the elements and no doctors). They are just a human- a smellier, dirtier human who on average would be smaller and lighter, and without the chance to learn any real martial arts training. But the real question is what kind of astronauts are we talking about- nerdy astro-physics payload specialists, or bad-ass former Marine pilots. I am assuming we are talking the real deal, thus they have had survival training and a decent set of martial arts skills, good nutrition and a history physical training- as well and being taller and bigger on average, so the Astronauts win pretty easily really. The better question is equally trained Knight vs a Samurai. ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/62 "2004-02-27T14:44:08Z")
> [@A wizard song for thee](#): > > Now, how many of you, like me, started the astronauts versus cavepersons debate amongst your very own circle of friends? We posed the question to just about everyone in the office yesterday. I am the _only_ one who insists that the astronauts even have a shot at winning. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/63 "2004-02-27T15:02:07Z")
It seems to me that if you’re going to pick the cream of the crop of the astronauts, you had also better pick a tribal leader from the cavemen. If you’re going to select a pilot or mission commander, he’s probably from the Navy, and probably from the Naval Academy, which means he’s had hand-to-hand combat training. But: he’s the _commander_. Like you said, his crew are nerdy Ph.D.'s who happen to be able to pass a flight physical. I think that if the astronauts from a shuttle crew came across a group of seven cavemen, and decided to settle it with B-movie-style single combat, then the cavemen would pick someone pretty solid. And on average, I think that the astronauts’ mission commander, if he was indeed former military, would win, if only because of the guarantee of formal combat training. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/64 "2004-02-27T15:08:58Z")
> [@Thea Logica](#): > > And I really, really dug Lorne slugging Eve. I didn’t see that coming at all. Lorne as a badass. Who’da thunk it? Ah yes, but that’s just it: Lorne _isn’t_ a badass. He just loves Fred enough to override his basic gentle nature. That’s what I love about the scene. Is it just me, or did something seem sort of off about Andy Hallett’s makeup this week? Can’t put my finger on it, but something seemed not quite right there. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/65 "2004-02-27T16:04:34Z")
Oh for god’s sake, people! Enough with the astronauts vs cavemen debate! Anyone who’s read this board for any length of time knows the answer: **Batman, if he’s prepared.** ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/66 "2004-02-27T19:55:57Z")
Could the astronauts make weapons? Not could they take guns with them for this fight - but could they look around at the ground and make a weapon based on their current knowledge? (This question has taken up far too much of my brain) ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/67 "2004-02-27T21:33:12Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > Is it just me, or did something seem sort of off about Andy Hallett’s makeup this week? Can’t put my finger on it, but something seemed not quite right there. The lips. Too bright red or too shiny. It almost overpowered the scene where he was with Wes and Fred on the stairs. Too much lip. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Jenny\_Haniver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Jenny\_Haniver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenny_Haniver)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/68 "2004-02-27T21:48:25Z")
How can they _dare_ cancel this show? I think somebody at the WB must be feeling like a right git now, seeing as the episodes airing right after the cancellation announcement are some of the best of the series. D’oh! But looking on the bright side: I think we’ve finally got our catchy hook for the Save Angel campaign. We start sending the Frog loads of postcards reading only: CAVEMEN! Or: ASTRONAUTS! (…even though the astronauts would totally win.) ---
**Author:** ![joshmaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@joshmaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joshmaker)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/69 "2004-02-27T23:34:30Z")
I can’t believe they are canceling this show. This episode rocked even more than the puppet episode. ---
**Author:** ![Jenny\_Haniver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Jenny\_Haniver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenny_Haniver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/70 "2004-02-28T03:00:27Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > It seems to me that if you’re going to pick the cream of the crop of the astronauts, you had also better pick a tribal leader from the cavemen. > > If you’re going to select a pilot or mission commander, he’s probably from the Navy, and probably from the Naval Academy, which means he’s had hand-to-hand combat training. But: he’s the _commander_. Like you said, his crew are nerdy Ph.D.‘s who happen to be able to pass a flight physical. > \ > And on average, I think that the astronauts’ mission commander, if he was indeed former military, would win, if only because of the guarantee of formal combat training. I think you’re being too literal-minded here - since we’re mucking with time to even hold the challenge, I don’t think Joss meant astronauts in terms of modern shuttle crews. The whole point of selecting _Astronauts_ as your fighter over say, Nobel Prize winners is basically to call to mind the cream of the crop of civilized human endeavor in training and fitness as well as intelligence. So when we throw astronauts into the ring, we’re not talking about the geek who got a grant from NSF to go up and study Columbian hayseeds in zero-gee, we’re talking about the original, quintessential, Atlantean astronauts. And I’m betting that if Alan Shepard and John Glenn went nose to prominent brow ridge with a coupla troglodytes with little but brute strength to recommend them, we’d discover that there’s a reason why evolution has favored the big brains. In a similar vein, Fred says the cavemen obviously win at the end, but would the passing of the demon age and the ascendance of mankind put the lie to that argument? Also, um, did anyone else find it funny that Angel – he of the Cro-Magnon brow that was the defining feature of his puppet - was arguing furiously against the cavemen? Joss is so mean. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/71 "2004-02-28T05:51:53Z")
Knox \*so \*died. Give it up people. Joss didn’t want an NC-17 rating 😉 And the astronauts win, given time to set up. If taken by an ambush, the cavemen win. ---
**Author:** ![A\_wizard\_song\_for\_thee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/46a35a/32.png) [@A\_wizard\_song\_for\_thee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_wizard_song_for_thee)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/72 "2004-02-28T07:19:13Z")
Just to add my vote, cavemen would _own_ the astronauts, as long as there are no weapons too modern for the cavemen to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/73 "2004-02-28T18:45:21Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Knox \*so \*died. Give it up people. Joss didn’t want an NC-17 rating 😉 > > And the astronauts win, given time to set up. If taken by an ambush, the cavemen win. Umm, Knox was in the preview for next week. It’s the first shot. The astronauts would just need to find something shiny to distract the cavemen. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/74 "2004-02-28T19:06:06Z")
> [@elf6c](#): > > 3/4 of the episode was stellar, 1/4 was a bit too over the top. Those parts (with Wes and Fred towards the end) needed a bit of editing. In shorter doses they would have been great, but they dragged on and on and on. I would respectfully disagree, I found those shots to be riveting, because all through them I was _waiting for something horrible to happen_. And now, [as promised](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4567899&postcount=75): Aroooo! ---
**Author:** ![green\_dragon\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/13edae/32.png) [@green\_dragon\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/green_dragon_1)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/75 "2004-02-29T21:24:57Z")
Great episode. One thing I’ve always loved about Joss is the way he can give a heart rending, tense episode still with wonderful snippets of humour thrown in. I thought Spike’s character really showed depth this time around; from serious and driven to save Fred to injecting trademark humour into the situation to introspective…and none of it out of place. Good work. Some favourite moments… Fred singing and Lorne’s look of total petrification, the spitting blood, dropping, being caught, Wes screaming for medical, prefectly done and really powerful. Conduit Gunn saying ‘I already have yours…’ letting Gunn know just how deep in it he really is. Gunn’s exceptionally shifty look just before bringing the pain down on Knox - what was he really trying to achieve? Cover his own tracks or vengeance for Fred? Eve reduced to a sad case hiding in Lindsays protected apartment, being slapped around by Lorne - perfect! The signs of deep seated friendship and camaderie between Spike and Angel; only two people who have a connection deep down can bicker that much. and many more. Sigh…why why WHY are they cancelling this? A Spike spinoff would be cool but the chances are zero; there would have been something said about it by now somewhere. However, now I think of it, how cool would it be for Spike to go off freelance, fighting evil all over the world, teaming up with **Doyle** (for real this time) whos been brought back by the PTB since Angel inc. died/turned to the dark side/became an elder demon/went to ground? Spike and Doyle would be a kickass team; how about a few slayers on board as well? Faith?! Yeah, I know, I’m dreaming. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/76 "2004-02-29T21:47:04Z")
> [@green\_dragon](#): > > Great episode. > > A Spike spinoff would be cool but the chances are zero; there would have been something said about it by now somewhere. However, now I think of it, how cool would it be for Spike to go off freelance, fighting evil all over the world, teaming up with **Doyle** (for real this time) whos been brought back by the PTB since Angel inc. died/turned to the dark side/became an elder demon/went to ground? > > Spike and Doyle would be a kickass team; how about a few slayers on board as well? Faith?! > > Yeah, I know, I’m dreaming. And attributing Joss-verse powers to the real world, as the actor that played Doyle died about a year ago. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/77 "2004-02-29T21:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Spike and Doyle would be a kickass team But one which will never be realized, as [Glenn Quinn](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0703849/), who played Doyle, died in 2002. ---
**Author:** ![green\_dragon\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/13edae/32.png) [@green\_dragon\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/green_dragon_1)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/78 "2004-02-29T21:52:48Z")
That I didn’t know. What a sad loss, he couldn’t have been that old. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/79 "2004-03-01T17:51:47Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Umm, Knox was in the preview for next week. It’s the first shot. Bah. I never trust previews, since they are designed to mislead. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203/80 "2004-03-01T21:12:14Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Bah. I never trust previews, since they are designed to mislead. True: Lilah got her head chopped off, but it didn’t stop her from continuing her work with Wolfram & Hart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-2-25-a-hole-in-the-world-spoilers/231203.md?page=3)