# Angel 4/15 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880 "2002-04-16T03:40:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/21 "2002-04-16T18:13:15Z")
Wow, what a great episode. The fight scene with Sajahn was excellent (I miss Buffy fight scenes!) I do have one small question - Who is the little girl? I missed the minute or two leading up to her. Is this her first appearance? ---
**Author:** ![kasuo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@kasuo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kasuo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/22 "2002-04-16T18:40:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PatrickM \* > \*\*All that, and I miss Cordelia. Tell the lovely Ms. Chase to finish up her movie shoot and get her back on “Angel” where she belongs. \*\* Wasn’t she in Mexico with Groo? ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/23 "2002-04-16T19:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Wrong. Prophecies **can** be averted, ie Prophecy Girl. It’s been a while, but I thought the point of Prophecy Girl was that the prophecy did come true, just not in the way they expected it to. It said Buffy would die, and she did; it didn’t say she wouldn’t be revived after her death. ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/24 "2002-04-16T20:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\* > Wrong. Prophecies **can** be averted, ie Prophecy Girl. > > \*\* Wrong. The prophecy was explicitly NOT averted in Prophecy Girl, that was the point of the episode, establishing that prophecies cannot be averted though one might find a loophole. The prophecy was that the Master WOULD kill Buffy. The Master DID kill Buffy. She was simply able to get around it due to a technicality but the prophecy was fulfilled. The prophecy said that Angel would feed from Conner. One might read that to say that he’d kill Conner, but of course there’s a loophole: He is slipped Conner’s blood. Prophecy fulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/25 "2002-04-16T20:42:46Z")
Oh, wow. Now this is good T.V. I can’t help but compare it with _Buffy_ though. Let’s see, with _Angel_ we’re getting intricated, layered plots, revenge, betrayal, incredible loss, and muderous rage. Great stuff. With _Buffy_ we’re getting hamburger-flipping and invisibility rays. C’mon, Joss, snap out of the slump! ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/26 "2002-04-16T20:48:40Z")
I thought Angel’s reaction at the end was pretty understandable as well. IANAP, but if someone, however well-intentioned, kidnapped my baby, causing him to be sent to an impenetrable hell dimension, you can damn well bet I’d be out for their blood. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/27 "2002-04-16T21:12:40Z")
Since the killing prophesy says sired I suspect a vampire offspring of Angel is going to be responsible for the death of Sajahn. On a mildly related note is Sajahn played by the guy who played the werewolf hunter in Buffy? His voice is familiar and so is his “street face” ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/28 "2002-04-16T21:15:53Z")
Yep. I would never have believed Angel forgiving Wes, seeing as the whole screwup happened because Wes trusted Holtz more than he trusted Angel. Rule #1 for the Buffyverse: Tell all your friends everything that’s going on in your life. Down to the smallest detail. Anything you keep to yourself will come around to bite you in the ass, hard. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/29 "2002-04-16T21:48:19Z")
Wasn’t the prophecy that Angel would kill Conner just a phony thing planted by Sajahn? Sajahn is really the one trying to counter a true prophecy about his own death. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Green\_Fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mr.Green\_Fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Green_Fool)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/30 "2002-04-16T22:32:54Z")
…JOSS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! Christ pinned to his sticks people! Joss Whedon doesn’t have that much input into either show, but especially Angel. He’s too busy and barely gives a cursory look at what is going on. Joss doesn’t need to snap out of it… unless you mean snap out of being busy with development for Firefly. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/31 "2002-04-17T00:00:12Z")
**The Tim** , yep, he played Cain in “Phases”. While it’s true that the prophecy is fulfilled in Prophecy Girl, a bit point of the episode was that she shouldn’t just lay back and say “Well, I’m gonna die, that’s that…” By working against it, you **can** change things. ---
**Author:** ![G.I.J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ebca7d/32.png) [@G.I.J](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.I.J)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/32 "2002-04-17T00:04:21Z")
A very good episode, only one question. What is Sarjan? The little girl in the white room explained it, but thanks to some untimely loud noises in real life, I missed the explanation of what he actually was, and how he became what he is, well, was now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/33 "2002-04-17T00:30:22Z")
His race of demons were very powerful killing machines. They liked to go around and slaughter. The girl and her fellows, I suppose the !PTB decided they were too chaotic. So the entire race was made incorporeal. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/34 "2002-04-17T00:42:11Z")
Sahjon used to be a powerful warrior-demon, who sowed chaos where ever he went. His rampages apparently disturbed a number of plans laid down by the organization that would one day become Wolfram and Hart, so they cursed him by making him immaterial. (It might have been Sahjon’s entire race that this happened to, I’m not 100% certain.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/35 "2002-04-17T00:43:42Z")
Or, what **The Tim** said. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/36 "2002-04-17T01:24:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Telemark \* > \*\* I still don’t get why Angel didn’t want to contact Cordy. \*\* Ahem. \*\* I make no claim that what I am about to tell you is fact, it is a rumor that I heard from a source that I personally find reliable. But I have no way of knowing, I have not seen with my own eyes, and I therefore cannot and do not state that the following is unequivocally true, it is only what I happen to have heard. \*\* Angel didn’t want to contact Cordy because Charisma is still in rehab dealing with her affection for the vino. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Green\_Fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mr.Green\_Fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Green_Fool)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/37 "2002-04-17T02:34:24Z")
…Riiiiiight. Check please! ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/38 "2002-04-17T04:17:38Z")
What Joss has to snap out of is major plot points being revealed months before the shows occur. One great aspect about Buffy was that the plots were not spoiled months in advance. Now because of these spoilers, they will change the endings to many of the episodes. We were told of a Scooby Death and who it specifically was months in advance. I guaran-damn-tee that they will change it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/39 "2002-04-17T04:18:36Z")
I dunno about the little girl. She gave Angel a ritual that he thought would let him imprison his mortal enemy (err, immortal enemy?), but that actually made him much more powerful. She was subtle and tricky about it, just like the devil should be. So I don’t trust at all that she was telling Sajan’s true history, or explaining the real reason why he was incorporeal. In fact, I suspect that: 1. Either she’s a prisoner of W&H and is trying to screw up their plans; or 2. Having Sajahn become corporeal is all part of their massive mindgame with Angel, and indeed the whole thing is fitting into their plans. What I don’t suspect is that 3) She’s telling the straightforward truth about Sajahn. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880/40 "2002-04-17T04:44:58Z")
Well he seemed quite into the carnage when he was made solid and made remarks about how fighting used to be done. Also the urn thing trapped him. I think she told Angel the partial truth. Just as good as lying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-15/103880.md?page=3)