# Angel - 4-2 - Spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 3, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116 "2003-04-03T03:03:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/61 "2003-04-04T00:16:08Z")
Giles said that Jesse wasn’t Xander’s friend–it was the thing that killed Xander’s friend. Then Bufyf explained “The demon sets up shop, and it looks like you and it talks like you, but it’s not you!” Well, we know that vamps have the same memories post-vamping as they did pre-vamping, and the same feelings…(Though, I admit that point could be argued depending on which vamp you are looking at) then they are the _same_ person according to the criteria Darla laid out last night. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/62 "2003-04-04T00:49:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorgon Heap \* > \*\* I simply have to vote for Darla. She is _so_ sexy, and that husky voice … yowza. > > Does anybody know if the actor was in anything besides Buffy and _As Good as it Gets_? \*\* Yep. She was one of the FBI agents in **Roswell** if you have the sci-fi channel they’ll be playing the 1st season (one of the 2 she was in) again starting on the 10th 6pmEST. On Buffy Spike is obviously the most attractive. There aren’t really any guys on Angel that strike my fancy (see, Spike cured me of thinking Angel was attractive years back) but I was noticing last night that for a moment last night, Wes was attractive. He had a gun in hand at the time, so…😃 Actually, he was much better looking in the Noah’s Ark movie than they make him up to be in BTVS/Angel. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/63 "2003-04-04T01:27:01Z")
**pepper** : Considering that Darla was trying to talk her son out of starting the apocalypse, I think it might be possible that she playing a little loose with the definitions. At any rate, I consider what Giles and Buffy (and most other characters) have said about what vampire is or what it means to be turned into a vampire as personal opinion on an imponderable question. Buffy would hold the view you quoted because she has to kill these things on a daily basis. To do that, she needs to totally dehumanize them. Especially since there’s always a good chance that one of her friends or family will end up at the pointy end of her stake. Spike, on the other hand, is likely to have a substantially different view of the matter. For that matter, so is Buffy in season seven as opposed to Buffy in season one. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/64 "2003-04-04T11:23:43Z")
Could Darla have been the FE? I mean, wouldn’t that be ironic? The First Evil trying to prevent the competition from coming into being? Makes more sense of why Cordy was able to “see” her after trying hard enough: the FE is certainly going to be odds with the PTB in their mutual plots to do evil evil and evil good. ---
**Author:** ![torben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@torben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torben)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/65 "2003-04-04T12:57:58Z")
I really liked this episode. It was nice to see Darla again. The only thing that bothered me was that Darla did everything but state the obvious to Connor. Why couldn’t she just spell out for Connor that he’s being manipulated and used? Does he really like being a puppet this much? ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/66 "2003-04-04T13:20:57Z")
**Apos** both an interesting and amusing theory. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/67 "2003-04-04T13:45:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Archergal \* > \*\* > Second: When Cordelia started “giving birth” and that big swirly-tentacled-looking thing was floating over her, I thought, “Cool, she’s giving birth to great Cthulu!” > \*\* I was thinking the same thing! To be exact I was flashing back to the conclusion of the story & the Dean Stockwell film of THE DUNWICH HORROR _L_ ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Righteous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Dr.Righteous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Righteous)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/68 "2003-04-04T15:33:54Z")
See, I thought Darla was a manifestation of TPTB. Darla made such a big deal about Connor having to make his own decision about it and I think only good guys are so concerned about free will. I was also thinking that Zoe (the ‘baby’) was actually the Devil himself. You know - the master of lies? Coming to earth as an ugly mofo doesn’t seem to work (Angelus killed the other fella after all) so come to them in the guise of a beautiful woman and convince them all to work for you and do your bidding. But then again, I could be wrong. Lord knows it’s happened often enough before. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/69 "2003-04-04T16:27:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, we know that vamps have the same memories post-vamping as they did pre-vamping, and the same feelings… then they are the same person according to the criteria Darla laid out last night. My take is that Darla is a bit of a special case. As she pointed out while talking to Connor, she and Connor “shared a soul.” I think it was the soul-sharing bit which removed her from the realm of pure vampire, and humanized her somewhat. When she was, uh, undead, having a souled baby inside her changed her nature enough to allow her to sacrifice herself for him, something inconceivable to the Darla who fed on babies many thimes through the centuries. So, while memories and feelings of a human being to not a human make, adding a soul into the equation changes things. I think it made there be enough of Darla to bring back to talk with Connor. If she was only a soulless, dusted vampire, there’d be nothing to bring back. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/70 "2003-04-04T16:46:42Z")
I just want to jump in here to say, as the **only** person on these boards who has said all along that Cordy’s ascension was a **BIG TRAP** , neener neener neener! In your face, Springfield! ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/71 "2003-04-04T17:27:57Z")
Let’s all give **Otto** , our very own Admiral Ackbar, a big round of applause! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/72 "2003-04-04T19:19:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*I just want to jump in here to say, as the **only** person on these boards who has said all along that Cordy’s ascension was a **BIG TRAP** , neener neener neener! In your face, Springfield! \*\* Good call. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/73 "2003-04-04T19:34:08Z")
I just want to say that the Magic 8-Ball is my new favorite character on Angel. It got all the good lines in the last two episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Judith\_Prietht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b19c9b/32.png) [@Judith\_Prietht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Judith_Prietht)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/74 "2003-04-04T19:43:01Z")
“Definitely.” ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/75 "2003-04-04T20:40:04Z")
Thankyew. Thankyewverramuch. Anyways, now that I’m done gloating, I wanted to add that the only thing that really disturbed me about the ep and the assertion that everything that’s happened to Cordelia over the last few years is part of this master plan is what it says about Doyle’s sacrifice. Doyle giving up his life to save Angel and the refugee demons in “Hero” was one of the noblest things ever done by a character on this show (ranking right there with Buffy’s taking the Big Dive to spare Dawn) and the idea that that he didn’t freely choose to do it but was instead manipulated into it by EZ (Evil Zoe) in order to get his visions passed to Cordelia cheapens it unimaginably. I hope no one I’ve scolded for going extra-textual to explain continuity gaffes will mind if I choose to believe that, despite what Skip said, Doyle’s sacrifice was his own free choice and EZ merely used it opportunisticly (which has the added bonus of making EZ even more of a bitch). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/76 "2003-04-04T22:04:03Z")
After this episode, Buffy will never again be able to toss a gun aside, saying “These things, never useful”. Nice shooting Wes. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/77 "2003-04-04T23:48:42Z")
If my theory is right: if this beastie really DOES think it’s the greatest, goodest thing sinced sliced bread… what is it’s deep dark secret, other than being willing to do major evil for the “greater good” or even for a goal that surpasses good and evil? I mean, it obviously has some concept of it making a perfect world. What’s going to be “imperfect” aside from its manipulation of free will? (which can’t possible be ALL that’s wrong with it). ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/78 "2003-04-05T00:43:21Z")
**pepperlandgirl** : > [@](#): > > Remember when Darla said “I have her feelings, her memories, doesn’t that make me her?” Or words to that affect? Uh…doesn’t that present a whole host of problems? Including, what a vampire is (Darla’s statements directly contradicts what Giles said about vamps in S1) As **Beadalin** said, I don’t think this is a problem. The ghost Connor saw wasn’t a ghost of the human Darla, but of the vampire Darla (the only one of the two who is Connor’s mother). She did say repeatedly that she “shared a soul” with Connor, which I take to mean that the soul tainted her evilness, just as happened with Angel and Spike. That explains Darla’s pleas to Connor while still preserving the distinction between Darla and Vamp!Darla. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/79 "2003-04-05T04:19:55Z")
I actually figured at first that Darla was appeared to Connor because of some lingering after-effect in his OWN soul, due to them sharing it. In a way, she was both Darla and just a manifestation of his own soul. It also explains why Darla didn’t actually know anything more than Connor did: she was just horrified at what he was doing, and how he was ignoring otherwise obvious signs of Cordy’s evil. But then, Cordy’s ability to see or sense Darla seems to blow that whole theory to hell. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116/80 "2003-04-05T05:14:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > **Darla’s statements directly contradicts what Giles said about vamps in S1…** Well, if you want to get _really_ technical, the Master did make reference to a soul for himself in either _Welcome to the Hellmouth_ or _The Harvest_–I can’t remember which right now. He made mention of Luke (?) feeding his (the Master’s) soul when annointing Luke as the vessel for the Harvest. So, I’m not saying that ME is perfect with continuity, but when they screw with the whole blood-sucking-fiends-ain’t-got-a-soul mythos in the first two hours of Buffydom, then I think little creative mistakes can happen every now and then and we (or, well… me) can forgive them for their trespasses. Of course, if you have some alternate explanation (alternate to a screw up) as to the Master’s soul reference, please fill me in. 'Cause, seriously, it’d be a hoot if I’ve been wrong all these years. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-2-spoilers/166116.md?page=5)