# Angel 4-28 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613 "2004-04-29T02:58:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrianJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@BrianJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianJ)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/41 "2004-04-30T18:44:31Z")
OK I hate to ask this… I haven’t watched this show since Cordelia apparently came back from wherever she was and seemed to turn evil. The last episode I watched was one where she ‘gave birth’ to an evil female being that seemed to be controlling everyones minds except Fred’s… Does anyone know of a good site where I could get a rundown of what has happened plotwise since then? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/42 "2004-04-30T19:08:21Z")
> [@jellyblue](#): > > …Why bother prophesizing about an extraordinary being who becomes _mortal_? What a bore! … You mean, someone like Illyria? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/43 "2004-04-30T19:11:47Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Well, I think it’s a big deal because vampires are demons and evil–even ones with souls. Angel makes the point in Season 3’s _Loyalty_ episode when Holtz sends a spy, Aubrey, to the Hotel. > [@](#): > > Aubrey: “Maybe I could have found a way to turn him back.” > > Angel: “When somebody becomes a vampire there is no turning back. (Wes looks over at Angel) No matter how much you want to believe there is some part of him you can save, all that’s left is an evil thing.” ---
**Author:** ![petelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@petelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petelin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/44 "2004-04-30T19:39:27Z")
Hey Pepperlandgirl, that’s an interesting theory on the Shanshu prophecy, but to be honest, I’m not sure I get it. Could you explain how Connor could be it? What did the prophecy say? The vampire with a soul will play a large part in the apocalypse, and will then live and die (become mortal)? Something like that? How’s that Connor? Also, my sisters and I have often talked about how interesting it would be if Angel Shanshu’d, and there was a “big flash of light” thing, and the scene changed to Liam meeting Darla, and deciding to turn down her proposition (not sure why anyone would do that). But then Liam would live his life without becoming a vampire. Interesting take on the prophecy. I’m 99.9% sure it won’t happen that way. But imagine the Buffyverse if Angel were never there. No Drusilla, no Spike (which would suck), and Buffy would have likely died in Season 1. Interesting to think about. As for Wednesday’s ep, I liked it. I used to be worried that they’d try to wrap everything in the last 6 weeks…then I was worried that they wouldn’t wrap everything up in the last 6 weeks…now I’m just along for the ride. I love this show, and no matter what they do, I’m going to savor the last three episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/45 "2004-04-30T20:11:52Z")
Obviously with next week’s flashback and then only two more episodes, they’re going to be some loose ends that won’t get wrapped up. Which of the small one(s) that probably won’t have a TV Movie are going to bug you most? The last we saw of Justine, Wesley had left her chained to a pier after they pulled Angel out of the ocean in Season 4. He said something about her being able to choose to be a slave (to her anger and revenge) or she could choose to be free. So, which did she choose? And what about Gwen Raiden? Gunn helped turn her “off”. Now what ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/46 "2004-04-30T20:12:39Z")
> [@BrianJ](#): > > Does anyone know of a good site where I could get a rundown of what has happened plotwise since then? [TV Tome](http://www.tvtome.com/Angel/) is a good place for short plot summaries. If you Google around there is at least one Angel-specific site that has very detailed summaries. Also try Television Without Pity. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/47 "2004-04-30T20:16:27Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > And what about Gwen Raiden? Yeah, what about her? I wouldn’t mind seeing Spandexia again. She was…nice to look at. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/48 "2004-04-30T20:38:33Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > The last we saw of Justine, Wesley had left her chained to a pier after they pulled Angel out of the ocean in Season 4. He said something about her being able to choose to be a slave (to her anger and revenge) or she could choose to be free. So, which did she choose? Are you sure? I thought the last we saw of her was when she put Sahjahn in the jar. Did I miss something? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/49 "2004-04-30T20:44:57Z")
She put Sahjahn in the jar in Season 3. But Season 4 started with Wesley forcing her to dive to recover Angel from the ocean. He kept her chained or in a box when not in use. After rescuing Angel he tossed the keys to her shackles on the ground in front of her, I think they might have been just out of reach, and told her to make a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/50 "2004-04-30T20:59:12Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > She put Sahjahn in the jar in Season 3. But Season 4 started with Wesley forcing her to dive to recover Angel from the ocean. He kept her chained or in a box when not in use. After rescuing Angel he tossed the keys to her shackles on the ground in front of her, I think they might have been just out of reach, and told her to make a choice. Oops, you’re right. I thought they bottled up Sahjahn later in the series, after they’d fished Angel out of the drink, but now that I think about it, that’s obviously wrong. He was gone before teen Connor showed up. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/51 "2004-04-30T21:31:16Z")
> [@petelin](#): > > Hey Pepperlandgirl, that’s an interesting theory on the Shanshu prophecy, but to be honest, I’m not sure I get it. Could you explain how Connor could be it? What did the prophecy say? The vampire with a soul will play a large part in the apocalypse, and will then live and die (become mortal)? Something like that? How’s that Connor? > > . Ok, here’s the exact explanation of the shanshu from **To Shanshu in L.A.** > [@Wesley Wyndam-Price](#): > > Shanshu has roots in so many different languages. The most ancient source is the Proto-Bantu and they consider life and death the same thing, part of a cycle, only a thing that’s not alive never dies. It’s- it’s saying - that you get to live until you die. - It’s saying - it’s saying you become human…Ah, the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu. Become human. - It’s his reward. (Note that there’s nothing about an apocolypse, just fulfilling of destiny…) Now, the Buffy(Angel)verse routinely plays fast and loose with prophecies. In fact, sayeth the master > [@The Master](#): > > You tried. It was noble of you. You heard the prophecy that I was about to break free and you came to stop me. But prophecies are > tricky creatures. They don’t tell you everything. (whispers) You’re the > one that sets me free! (gloats) If you hadn’t come, I couldn’t go. > (whispers) Think about that! So what if the Shanshu prophecy isn’t telling us everything? There’s no way Wes could have assumed when he translated it that it wouldn’t literally mean Angel would _live_ again. THere’s no way he would have thought of a child. But then, what is a child? Before Connor was born, they were worried he’d be some sort of monster. Angel was elated when they heard proof that his _son_ was alive. A human. The son that carries half of his genetic make-up and all of his strength. I guess what I’m thinking is that Angel is literally living again through the son he created with Darla. That Connor _is_ his destiny. Why? Connor is strong enough to literaly fight demons and stop apocolypses. He’s strong enough, that if he chose to, he could save people every night like Angel does. He’s also obviously intelligent. And why shouldn’t he be? Angel and Darla are many things, but stupid they are not. He’s intelligent enough to make a difference in the world once he gets out of school. Emotionally, he’s well grounded. He has literally seen the worst of humanity, he knows how bad things can get. And yet, when he walked away with Angel, he did so with an appreciation of who he was and what his father taught him, not with bitterness and anger. Physically, mentally, and emotionally he’s in a position where he could literally change the world on a small or large scale. Connor could be a true gift to the world–Angel managed to give something back that he thought he could only steal. A life. A life. Angel can live again through his son. After every horrible thing he did as Angelus, and all the souls he fought for, all the demons he killed, and all the good he done as Angel, he gave his world something infinitely precious that _he should have never been able to give_. I think this relates to the S2 episode **The Trial** , when Angel fought to save Darla’s life. > [@](#): > > Jeeves: “Congratulations. You’ve passed the third test - by accepting death. - I’m told no one’s ever gone that far before - in terms of sacrifice. - Kudos.” > Angel: “Pay up.” > Jeeves: “Of course. (To Darla) You’re a lucky woman, and soon you’ll have your whole life ahead. - Use it wisely.” > Angel: “Hey, Jeeves, unless this fortune cookie crap is some new kind of torture, what you say we get on with it, huh?” > Jeeves turns to Darla and motions for her to come closer: “This way, miss.” > He puts his hands on the sides of her head and they both close their eyes as Angel tries to straighten up so he can get a better view. > Jeeves opens his eyes and lets his hands drop. > Jeeves: “Oh.” > Darla: “What?” > Angel: “What is it?” > Jeeves: “This is - very embarrassing.” > Angel: “What is?” > Jeeves: “Not to mention unprecedented. She’s - she’s been given new life once before - by supernatural means, yes?” > Darla nods slightly: “They brought me back.” > Angel: “What are you saying?” > Jeeves: “I can’t help you.” > Angel: “We had a bargain. She’s earned a second chance.” Connor is her second chance too. And by killing herself, she made the same sacrifice that Angel made for her. Of course, she didn’t get to walk away from the trial in one piece, but by accepting her death, she also gave herself a second chance. Everything that Connor is for Angel, he is for Darla as well. Also, Angel fought for a life. He earned a life. He won a life. Maybe the life he won was ultimately Connor’s… From **Offspring** > [@](#): > > Angel: “That’s biologically impossible.” > > Lorne: “And mystically unfair. You’ve fought long and hard for good. If your destiny is to spawn something evil…” > > Angel: “I don’t see how anything spawned by Darla and me could be good.” His destiny wasn’t to spawn something evil at all. His _destiny_ was to create something good. His destiny is his shanshu, and the life he fought for, and the gift he was granted, came in the form of a new life–Connor. I remembered this quote at the end of episode 18 and it made me cry like a baby…or you know, sniffle like I had a cold. ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/52 "2004-05-01T03:25:19Z")
> [@thinksnow](#): > > You mean, someone like Illyria? 😉 Yeah, but she’s, y’know, BLUE, so I’m partial to her… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/53 "2004-05-01T03:34:30Z")
(Sorry, I don’t know how get more than one quote in a reply yet . ) Okay, OKAY, it’s NOT boring, at least when you put it like _that_🙂 . After long and careful deliberation, the Committee has decided to confer upon you, **Pepperlandgirl** , a Doctorate of Philosophy in AtVS. You shall heretofore be known as **Pepperlandgirl, Ph.D**., or **Dr. Pepperlandgirl** , whichever you prefer, with all the rights and privileges issuing therefrom and so on and so forth, hereby declared on this 30th day of April in the Year of Joss 2004. Congratulations! Very, very impressive! 🙂 > [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Ok, here’s the exact explanation of the shanshu from **To Shanshu in L.A.** > > (Note that there’s nothing about an apocolypse, just fulfilling of destiny…) > > Now, the Buffy(Angel)verse routinely plays fast and loose with prophecies. In fact, sayeth the master > So what if the Shanshu prophecy isn’t telling us everything? There’s no way Wes could have assumed when he translated it that it wouldn’t literally mean Angel would _live_ again. THere’s no way he would have thought of a child. > > But then, what is a child? Before Connor was born, they were worried he’d be some sort of monster. Angel was elated when they heard proof that his _son_ was alive. A human. The son that carries half of his genetic make-up and all of his strength. I guess what I’m thinking is that Angel is literally living again through the son he created with Darla. That Connor _is_ his destiny. Why? > > Connor is strong enough to literaly fight demons and stop apocolypses. He’s strong enough, that if he chose to, he could save people every night like Angel does. He’s also obviously intelligent. And why shouldn’t he be? Angel and Darla are many things, but stupid they are not. He’s intelligent enough to make a difference in the world once he gets out of school. Emotionally, he’s well grounded. He has literally seen the worst of humanity, he knows how bad things can get. And yet, when he walked away with Angel, he did so with an appreciation of who he was and what his father taught him, not with bitterness and anger. > Physically, mentally, and emotionally he’s in a position where he could literally change the world on a small or large scale. Connor could be a true gift to the world–Angel managed to give something back that he thought he could only steal. A life. A life. Angel can live again through his son. After every horrible thing he did as Angelus, and all the souls he fought for, all the demons he killed, and all the good he done as Angel, he gave his world something infinitely precious that _he should have never been able to give_. > > I think this relates to the S2 episode **The Trial** , when Angel fought to save Darla’s life. > Connor is her second chance too. And by killing herself, she made the same sacrifice that Angel made for her. Of course, she didn’t get to walk away from the trial in one piece, but by accepting her death, she also gave herself a second chance. Everything that Connor is for Angel, he is for Darla as well. > > Also, Angel fought for a life. He earned a life. He won a life. Maybe the life he won was ultimately Connor’s… > > From **Offspring** > His destiny wasn’t to spawn something evil at all. His _destiny_ was to create something good. His destiny is his shanshu, and the life he fought for, and the gift he was granted, came in the form of a new life–Connor. I remembered this quote at the end of episode 18 and it made me cry like a baby…or you know, sniffle like I had a cold. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/54 "2004-05-01T12:09:31Z")
> [@](#): > > But imagine the Buffyverse if Angel were never there. No Drusilla, no Spike (which would suck), and Buffy would have likely died in Season 1. Sans Spike Buffy might never have come into existence at all given that he offed two slayers. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/55 "2004-05-01T13:29:21Z")
I’m now as psoiled as Pepperlandgirl is (up to ep.22), and I agree with her. This was not stand alone, but served the arc well. Apart from that, I have to digest the spoilage. Let’s just say that many viewers will be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/56 "2004-05-02T22:06:52Z")
For the kind of obsessively detailed, frame-by-frame episode summaries true fans need I recommend [City Of Angel](http://cityofangel.com/episodes/index.html) (I can’t recall which Doper recommended the site to me.) Re Shanshu Are you sure it’s protoBantu? I could’ve sworn that it was protoUgaric. I say that it isn’t Connor. Angel fulfills his destiny and is rewarded with a transformation into flea. No longer part demon, he is at last free to walk in the sun, grow old, die, hop massive distances, and live on dogblood. The last shot of the series is a zoom in Angel’s head. His antenae twich. His mandibles quiver. In voice over we hear Angel say ‘Reward my ass! Lousy stinking shanshu! Powers That Be, if you can hear me-Eat Shi’ sudden cut to credits. End of series. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/57 "2004-05-03T04:40:09Z")
Would they be heavy, brooding antennae? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/58 "2004-05-03T05:20:41Z")
They’d have to be, wouldn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/59 "2004-05-03T07:38:08Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Also, Angel fought for a life. He earned a life. He won a life. Maybe the life he won was ultimately Connor’s… I need to be in bed, so I ain’t going to look it up, but they explain the life won from _The Trial_ somewhere in either Season 3 or Season 4. To make a quick summary, the life won in that episode _was_ Connor. Darla already had a life restored to her, and Angel won the life fair-and-square, but they didn’t say that Darla walked away without an extra life, just that _she_ couldn’t live again–which is how she got pregnant. Connor was that life Angel won. Okay, I lied: I did look. But now I can’t find it. I thought it was our horny friend, Skip, who originally told us that. But after looking through a few transcripts of Season 4, I can’t find it. Does anyone else remember that? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613/60 "2004-05-03T13:17:29Z")
In terms of the prophesy, isn’t the fact that Spike’s still a vampire a sign that the prophecy isn’t quite what it’s cracked up to be? I mean, he’s a vampire with a sould that fullfilled the prophecy (sacrificed himself to save the world, yadda yadda yadda), yet he’s still a blood sucker. When I heard he was going to be a character on Angel, I thought the storyline was going to deal with his coming back human, having been the fulfillment of the prophecy, and then having Angel deal with that, but apparently, that didn’t happen. Still, I’m suprised noone on the show has picked up on that fact and brought it into question. I mean, that makes it pretty obvious to me something’s not quite right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-4-28/242613.md?page=4)