# Angel 5/12 (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 13, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893 "2004-05-13T02:08:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/1 "2004-05-13T02:08:57Z")
Uh… OK? So there’s _another_ group of evil baddies? Discovered just in time for the series finale? And this Fred worship has just got to end (yeah, I know, it’ll end next week.) She’s the Jim Croce of the Whedonverse, a person who is loved more dead than alive. And that stupid aside… what was it? “Other than that one time.” :rolleyes: Sorry, but this episode brought new definitions to the word “lame.” ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/2 "2004-05-13T02:12:07Z")
:mad: Damn Pacers are on in Indy ☹ Now I’m going to have to figureout when the new Angel is on. ---
**Author:** ![the\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@the\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_Lady)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/3 "2004-05-13T02:12:30Z")
I didn’t think it was so bad - when you consider they had to wrap things up pretty quickly… So - which actor didn’t want to sign on for potential movies or spin-offs? Doesn’t that determine who dies? ---
**Author:** ![EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilHamsterOnCrack)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/4 "2004-05-13T02:13:16Z")
I agree… I mean… they tried so hard to throw a curveball that they just missed. (Forgive the pun) Also, it was way too condensed. You know they could’ve completely not done that stupid buffy episode and stretched this and the next one into 3 episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/5 "2004-05-13T02:18:25Z")
If it’s in the preview, is it a spoiler? Just in case: Who’s gonna croak? I’m betting Connor-born in a puddle, killed in the rain. And Angel can kill him again so Wes’ prophecy can be right in _two_ worlds! I liked it- Angel finally gets some non-cursed tail 😃 The boy needed that. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/6 "2004-05-13T02:19:39Z")
> [@the Lady](#): > > I didn’t think it was so bad - when you consider they had to wrap things up pretty quickly… > > So - which actor didn’t want to sign on for potential movies or spin-offs? Doesn’t that determine who dies? So much for the spoiler boxes! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![the\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@the\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_Lady)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/7 "2004-05-13T02:27:39Z")
Well - you’ll note I didn’t say it happened - I was speaking of predictions. Do you really think that a Whedon show will end without at least one main character dead? (and the “spoilers” in the thread title kinda gives it away dontcha think?) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Riqay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Riqay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riqay)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/8 "2004-05-13T02:30:18Z")
I liked it. Sure, the whole Black Thorn bit was a curve ball (maybe even a wild pitch), but as a mechanism for wrapping up the series when they should have been wrapping up a season, I thought it had its moments. I liked the scene in the office at the end. > [@Annie](#): > > I liked it- Angel finally gets some non-cursed tail 😃 The boy needed that. Related to this, I had a thought this evening. When Angel had the moment of perfect happiness, he lost his soul because of the fine print in the gypsies’ curse. Willow repeated that curse and restored Angel’s soul just befor Buffy sent him to Hell to silence Acathla. So, when Angel comes back from hell, given that his soul exists because of the same gypsy curse, it seems reasonable to assume that another moment of perfect happiness would be a Bad Thing. Then last year, they gang removed his soul again so they could chat with Angelus. That bit if fun ended with Willow (again), but this time, all she did was break the glass vial to free Angel’s soul and then guide them back together again. So my question is: Does the moment-of-perfect-happiness clause still matter? Granted, tonight, he probably couldn’t be perfectly happy, what with all the ending the apocalypse business going on. But what if his tryst was that perfect? Does the gypsies’ curse still apply after the remove-and-restore soul swap from last year? I’m not convinced either way. Just thought I’d ask. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/9 "2004-05-13T02:31:02Z")
Aw, heck no. Someone on the second string always end up a floater. A fiver on Lorne. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/10 "2004-05-13T02:36:55Z")
> [@Riqay](#): > > So my question is: Does the moment-of-perfect-happiness clause still matter? Granted, tonight, he probably couldn’t be perfectly happy, what with all the ending the apocalypse business going on. But what if his tryst was that perfect? Does the gypsies’ curse still apply after the remove-and-restore soul swap from last year? I think they’re just sex-and-movies dating, not Twuu Wuv ™ ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/11 "2004-05-13T02:38:09Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Uh… OK? > > So there’s _another_ group of evil baddies? Discovered just in time for the series finale? Same baddies, just given a title. Many of them have already appeared as close associates of WRH,. Now we know what they call themselves as a group. WRH is still the main bad. These guys are just their earthbound reps. It feels rushed. But how else could it feel. There isn’t time to develop Angels charade over multiple eps. It’s probably going to be Illyria that dies. ---
**Author:** ![the\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@the\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_Lady)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/12 "2004-05-13T02:38:17Z")
Hmm - not sure I want to take that bet - that was my thought as well. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/13 "2004-05-13T02:39:21Z")
And then Fred wakes up in that leather jumpsuit! ---
**Author:** ![EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilHamsterOnCrack)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/14 "2004-05-13T02:46:22Z")
> [@Sir Prize](#): > > Same baddies, just given a title. Many of them have already appeared as close associates of WRH,. Now we know what they call themselves as a group. WRH is still the main bad. These guys are just their earthbound reps. > > It feels rushed. But how else could it feel. There isn’t time to develop Angels charade over multiple eps. It’s probably going to be Illyria that dies. WRH? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/15 "2004-05-13T02:53:17Z")
That was Freaking Awesome! From the very stylish (and sudden trendy) hood on the faerie guy, Spike’s homoerotic aside, and Angel’s ploy, it was great. Probably teh best episode of the season. I admit, it wasn’t perfect. I would’ve liked to see Angel’s plan start showing a bit sooner (although that may have gotten old). I’m also not sure what the Black Thorns are supposed to do that’s so different from the offices of W&H proper. Still, it works. Just another subdivision of the Senior Partners. We’d better get to see them next week. ---
**Author:** ![Riqay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Riqay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riqay)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/16 "2004-05-13T02:54:55Z")
> [@EvilHamsterOnCrack](#): > > WRH? Wolf Ram and Hart ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/17 "2004-05-13T03:05:59Z")
Oo! Methinks Illyria is going to be mighty cranky next ep. Didn’t really care about any of those baddies. Or this ep. _yawn_ Though I liked everyone’s bloodlust there and the end. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/18 "2004-05-13T03:19:27Z")
> [@Sir Prize](#): > > It’s probably going to be Illyria that dies. No way. It would be downright sadistic to kill “Fred” _again_. Besides they can try to stick her in the next Buffyverse series, like “Ripper” or something. I’m sticking by my predictions from last week. Lorne, who has become redundant and hasn’t done anything all season, but fans like him so they can kill him horribly. And/Or Wesley is going to die because he’s the biggest fan-favourite after Spike, and that would be the most melodramatic and tear-inducing. So they’d have to do it in some big sacrifice kind of way. Like he gives his life to save Illyria’s or Connor’s (to make up for kidnapping him). Spike still has too much marketing potential and fans would _never_ forgive his death. Gunn’s just done the “torture in the basement thing”, so that puts him in the clear. I wish Lilah was back. I miss Lilah. I want Lilah to come ack to kill Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/19 "2004-05-13T03:28:53Z")
> [@Annie](#): > > So much for the spoiler boxes! :smack: It’s not a spoiler, just _speculation_ based on the fact that a truly happy ending with everyone unscathed is just really unlikely in the Jossverse. Kinda like Anya in Buffy’s finale and the _one_ Baby-Slayer that anyone actually liked (what’s-her-face from the episode in which the thought Dawn was a potential). Someone’s gotta go, so it’s time to place bets! Don’t forget he minor characters who may show up like Gwen, the electric spandex chick, and hey, Werebabe might disobey Angel and try to help and get herself whacked. Harmony is an Anya-like character - definitley whackable. Connor if he shows up again… What about that cop who’s on Law & Order now? Let’s see… who else is there? Clem? Hey, how come Clem never had an Angel cameo or did I miss it? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/20 "2004-05-13T04:31:14Z")
> [@Eats\_Crayons](#): > > Let’s see… who else is there? Clem? Hey, how come Clem never had an Angel cameo or did I miss it? I can just picture the heroic death of Clem in the Angel finale “These Lay’s Stax just aren’t as good as Pringles. They’re simultaneously heavier, yet somehow less solid. Plus, I feel somewhat immoral patronizing a company that- Ack!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893.md?page=2)