# Angel 5/12 (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 13, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893 "2004-05-13T02:08:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/41 "2004-05-13T14:40:57Z")
Although I enjoyed last week’s episode, I agree that it was unneccessary and made this week’s show seem rushed. And based on the rate at which they tested and accepted Angel, the Senior Partners should have another secret society up and running approximately one week after Angel and his crew destroy the first one. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/42 "2004-05-13T14:55:33Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Depends on how they die. A mystical death can be undone. But an old fashioned, mundane, normal death can’t. Remember Tara? Okay, so I should be putting money down of Welsey and Gunn as likely to be pushing up daisies in the near future… Should the betting pool include Method of Demise? Blunt force trauma vs. gunshot etc.? And does “eaten by demon” qualify as “mystical death” or “normal death” (by fangs and teeth)? ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/43 "2004-05-13T14:57:45Z")
> [@Jurph](#): > > Also: does Angel really think a _glammer_ is going to fool Alec Baldwin? He is **really** well-dressed! I bet Billy Baldwin, Steve Baldwin and Daniel Baldwin would be fooled, as well as Alec Baldwin. But not ADAM. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/44 "2004-05-13T15:09:28Z")
> [@Eats\_Crayons](#): > > the _one_ Baby-Slayer that anyone actually liked (what’s-her-face from the episode in which the thought Dawn was a potential). LaLaine from Lizzie McQuire? > [@Eats\_Crayons](#): > > Werebabe might disobey Angel and try to help and get herself whacked. Harmony is an Anya-like character - definitley whackable. Oh yeah- BOTH definitely whackable!!! Oh! I’m sorry! You didn’t mean that kind of whackable. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/45 "2004-05-13T15:13:52Z")
> [@AerynSun](#): > > So what exactly is the point of Angel’s plan? It seemed he was saying, “We’ll never make a real difference, so let’s all die in an effort to flip the bird to the SPs.” > > And did anyone else catch: > > Wesley: “Why the sudden need to tie up loose ends?” I think the plan can be summed up in one easy line. _If nothing you do matters, all that matters is what you do._ Angel was never in the business of saving the world. That was Buffy’s job. Angel saved souls. And Angel knew that he was never going to defeat all Evil, like Buffy seemed to think she could do. He just took it one person at a time. In fact, Wes said as much in **Judgement**. \*: “Of course. We shouldn’t be keeping score. We’re not running a race - we’re doing a job - one soul at a time.” \*. That’s what this plan comes down to. And also, I think, he’s saving their souls in the process. They probably know by now that W&H isn’t just going to let them walk away. “Hey, we quit. It’s been fun but…” And if they continue to work there, they continue to serve evil, no matter what good they think they’ve done or will try to do. This is as much to keep themselves from reaching for Power and going too far as it is to stop the power cell of W&H. As Angel gave his speech last night, i realized what he was saying is that this is their only way out. They can continue to tread water and grow more and more corrupt…or they could go out with one final HURRAH! I’m surprised it took Spike so long to vote. I thought his hand would fly up. But then, maybe he doesn’t have so much of a death wish anymore. I’m happy Spangel is canon, and when Illyria said “Wes and I no longer have intercourse” I about fell out of my chair. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/46 "2004-05-13T15:25:52Z")
> [@Annie](#): > > Aw, heck no. Someone on the second string always end up a floater. A fiver on Lorne. I’ve been saying that for months. His makeup is too expensive. 😃 This episode was a relief after last week’s travesty. I’m in the camp which theorizes that last week was a patch job after Sarah Michelle Gellar refused to participate. Imagine the “move on” speech as delivered by Buffy… it would have made much more sense as being part of the finale of “Angel.” ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/47 "2004-05-13T15:25:57Z")
**Trion** , you owe me a new keyboard, dammit. And how am I going to clean all the diet coke off of my monitor? ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/48 "2004-05-13T15:26:41Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > I’m surprised it took Spike so long to vote. I thought his hand would fly up. I’m actually surprised that Gunn didn’t volunteer first. Lately he’s been resigned to his fate to the point where he turned down a “get out of Hell” pass because he knew there was a catch. The whole redeeming sacrifice schtick should be right up his alley. And his attitude regarding the Senator’s “diversity” platform: perfect! He knows he’s getting ahead on his merits. In fact, I think Gunn needs to fly out to Wichita and teach Pete (from _Smallville_) how to be a strong character who is a minority (rather than a token-minority-character-who-is-strong). Gunn is in the same shoes as Pete – stuck in the main characters’ shadows – but Gunn did something about it. He deals with his inferiority issues, fights the temptation to measure himself against them, and measures himself on his own, inflexible, moral scale. Overall, he’s come out ahead. I expected him to interrupt Angel’s charismatic speech and say something like “If we’ve only got six minutes, then shut up and count me in. Let’s use our time to plan. We’re going to need it.” ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/49 "2004-05-13T15:35:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I was very happy to see that there was a deeper reason for Lindsay’s return. Here’s what I don’t get: how did the Fang Gang get their hands on Lindsay in this episode? Didn’t Lindsay get taken by the Sr. Partners when we last saw him? I mean, he got sucked into a vortex that appeared in the ceiling. Usually something like that implies that the person is being moved out of range. ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/50 "2004-05-13T15:37:42Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > Here’s what I don’t get: how did the Fang Gang get their hands on Lindsay in this episode? Didn’t Lindsay get taken by the Sr. Partners when we last saw him? I mean, he got sucked into a vortex that appeared in the ceiling. Usually something like that implies that the person is being moved out of range. Well, after the SPs sucked him up, they got him out of basement hell and brought him on back. I just figured they were keeping him somewhere inside W&H, like a regular prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/51 "2004-05-13T15:57:43Z")
> [@Draelin](#): > > Well, after the SPs sucked him up, they got him out of basement hell and brought him on back. I just figured they were keeping him somewhere inside W&H, like a regular prisoner. Maybe he was killing time with Pavayne, or hanging out in Nina’s cell when she doesn’t need it. ---
**Author:** ![petelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@petelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petelin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/52 "2004-05-13T16:24:57Z")
I agree **Pepperlandgirl** , I thought Spike’s hand would fly up with the “I’m in” much earlier than it did. Especially considering his speech from “Shells” I think it was. I liked the episode. I was pretty sure it was Angel’s plan, but I too became entirely sure when I saw his face while meeting the members of the club. I can’t wait to see how it all ends, but I’m also depressed becasue it’s over. Did anyone else feel bad for Illyria? Especially when Hamilton beat the hell out of her? I really wish we could see what Joss and Co. had in store for her next season. On another note, now that Lindsay’s motives were (supposedly) shown, why was Spike brought back? Who really did it? Lilah (supposedly working for W&H) gave Angel the Amulet. Was Angel supposed to use it? Was it really Eve/Lindsay who sent it to Angel? Why was Spike brought back? To kill Angel? Why Spike? It really isn’t making a lot of sense to me. IF answering these questions will spoil me for next week, please use boxes, becasue I don’t want to know…but it’s looking less likely that next week will shed light on these answers. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/53 "2004-05-13T17:12:29Z")
I liked this episode and didn’t feel that it was rushed at all. Even before the credits scrolling, I thought that we were going to see an attemp of misdirection. It was so obvious, I wonder if Fury made it obvious on purpose. So Dragone (?) was a watcher? Interesting. Are we sure Hamilton didn’t kill Illyria? And speaking of Hamilton - I wish they had brought Baldwin on board much sooner. What a potential that character has. And he sure looks good in a suit, as opposed to his hat in Firefly. Remember people, there isn’t an arc this year. It’s stand alones, loosely fitting together with one common element, the location and what that does to the characters. There are loads of stuff to wrap up from earlier seasons, but not from this one, which essentially hasn’t gone anywhere. I wanted to see more of Werebabe. She’s very much a babe. ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/54 "2004-05-13T17:19:07Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > So Dragone (?) was a watcher? Interesting. Are we sure Hamilton didn’t kill Illyria? I don’t think Drogyn was a watcher. I think Wes knew so much about Drogyn and his task because _he_ used to be a watcher. Spike even said something about how “Percy wrote a paper” on him. And I don’t think we are sure if Hamilton killed Illyria, but I’m pretty sure he didn’t. We’d certainly have seen it if there was going to be no more Fred or Fred-like person. ---
**Author:** ![petelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@petelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petelin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/55 "2004-05-13T18:27:25Z")
Ok, i can’t take credit for this, and have not yet been able to verify it, but if this is true (and i hope it is) I’m happy. This came from a poster on another message board: > [@](#): > > The symbol that Angel shows Wes and finds in the black thorn lair is the same symbol in the robot in Lineage, on Illyria’s coffin, on the top of the fail safe in You’re Welcome. And in this episode, Powerplay, Lindsey describes the group as a gear - the circle is a gear in a machine that makes it run. If you think about it - each time we saw the symbol it was attached to a machine of some sort - something that moved. In Lineage - the device that made the robot move and triggered a bomb, in You’re Welcome the device that operated the fail-safe, and in Hole in the World the device that opened the coffin. Open, operate, move. Like a game of go or and infinite game between select players. If it’s true, it tells me the writers may have been planning this all along. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/56 "2004-05-13T18:33:58Z")
That makes sense, **petelin**. Especially if you consider that Angel mentioned several times last night that they were all part of a “machine”. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/57 "2004-05-13T19:07:49Z")
[spoiler]Personally, I was kind of disappointed. But I guess they wouldn’t out and out make Angel go evil. I was kind of hoping he would choose power, become corrupted, and then discover that it was all for nothing. The senior partners never “needed” him - not as a champion to distract, and not as a cog in the machine to use either. But I guess that would have been way to dark, even for a series ending, and it would have pissed off all the fans. And darn it, I wish I watched this episode all the way through. What’s all this about canon Spangel support?[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/58 "2004-05-13T19:52:45Z")
> [@petelin](#): > > Did anyone else feel bad for Illyria? Especially when Hamilton beat the hell out of her? I was thinking: Wow, look at that. A scene where a big tough man is pounding the bloody snot out of a little tiny woman, and it’s just part of the story. Is there another show on television that could get away with this? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/59 "2004-05-13T20:14:54Z")
“What’s all this about canon Spangel support?” - dotchan A throwaway line by Spike: Illyria: “Something to the effect of Angel pushing away confidants and intimates” Spike: “Angel and I were never intimate…(pause)…except that once.” :eek: Spangel slash lives!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893/60 "2004-05-13T20:20:39Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I was thinking: Wow, look at that. A scene where a big tough man is pounding the bloody snot out of a little tiny woman, and it’s just part of the story. Is there another show on television that could get away with this? It felt weird to watch that scene. I was feeling sorry for Illyria. But if you follow the premise of the character she was worse than all the black thorn put together. If Gunn, Angel and Spike have to suffer for redemption, what does she have to go through? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5-12-spoilers/244893.md?page=4)