Wow. I liked this episode. Doesn’t get us closer to the conclusion that I know of, but it resolves several hanging plot points. I am banking on there being a series of movies in the next several years to wrap up the rest. I loved all the Angel/Spike bonding, which fit right in with the flashbacks, cuckolding included. Lots of shout-outs to past episodes of both shows, and a kiss-off to Buffy (the bitch! 
). I’d give it an 8 out of 10. Not quite as funny as “Smile Time,” but up there.
I think the writers did make it open-ended. The beauty of the way it was written is that you can pretty much argue any interpretation of it you prefer. You hate Buffy and I gotta say your interpretation works pretty great. But going back to the scene itself? Nah. It’s pretty vague. That’s the way it should be. I definitely want Angel and Spike to move on as it’s the Angel show, and I have no interest in seeing SMG on either of the last 2 eps. But the triangle is definitely resolved? I didn’t see that at all.
Because I don’t want it to end with the characters ruined like they just did to Angelus – having him whine like Angel (and that was definitely Angel whining, not Angelus) – I don’t want the series going out with good characters getting that kind of treatment.
I assume Connor is going to be back which is enough to turn me off the final eps right there anyway.
I loved it. I laughed out loud many many times. I think it was Whedon & Co.'s way of poking fun at their fans. The Spuffys and Bangels were so busy fighting with each other (just like Spike and Angel), the Bummortals swept in under the radar and won. I think it’s great. When Spike and Angel were fighting over who saved the world more often? My sister informs me that very same arguement was had on Buffyverse message boards all the time. Spike’s speech about his coat, and what it meant to him, and how it completed his character, after it was destroyed, only to be replaced with 10 just like it. Perfect.
I think it was the funniest Mutant Enemy Episode to date (Ok, technically I havn’t seen ALL of Firefly yet). Spike and Angel were hilarious.
The Illyria stuff was very interesting, and I’m really upset we’re not going to get to see this character develop further. But wasn’t one of Fred’s last requests (if not her last words) for Wesley to tell her parents? Tell them she wasn’t scared or something like that? I can’t believe he hadn’t told them. Amy Acker is amazing. As much as I loved seeing “fred” again the Fred/Illyria switching thing wierded me out. Poor Wes. Poor Mr and Mrs Burkle.
Great episode.
I don’t see how Angelus was destroyed. I think one bad day at in like 2 centuries before coming Angel is pretty good odds. And I think the flashbacks were funny because for once, we were seeing Angelus and William the Bloody be “victimized”. We weren’t looking at it from the perspective of Angelus’ nuns. Because then Angelus and Spike aren’t funny at all. They’re scary and bit sexy, but not funny.
It was funny percisely because we’ve never seen the two of them in such a fix. For the first, and only time, until Angelus becomes Angel, he’s on the receiving end…the butt of somebody’s joke. Angelus was scary and lethal to all humans and most demons and vampires, but that doesn’t mean he was some sort of God who could never, ever be brought down a peg.
And of course, it adds a layer of ambiguity to Buffy’s new lover. He was capable of catching two of the mose sought after, deadly vampires–the Scourge of Europe if youwill—and all he did was tie them up and shag his women? Didn’t even try to kill the evil vampires? Hmmmmm. Maybe he has a soul now too.
Of course, his like “You never let us do that!” ruined some perfectly good fanfic and ripped it right out of canon. grumble
I didn’t like this episode: I loved this episode. I watched it twice: once on my own, and then my wife came home late and I watched it again with her.
I guess I sort of understand all the hand-wringing about a “wasted” hour, that there’s all kinds of plot to get through before the axe falls on the show’s neck, but y’know, I don’t share those concerns. I watch the show because I enjoy it, and trying to slog through five years of history to tie up every last thread doesn’t sound to me like fun, it sounds to me like homework. This is probably just me, but given the show’s inevitable demise, I’d strongly prefer an episode like this, one that’s just balls-to-the-wall entertaining, over one where you can see the writers furrowing their brows at a two-year-old page of notes trying to figure out how to cram in more details before the buzzer goes off. That being said, I do understand how someone could feel differently, given the high standard ME has set for their season-long storytelling. I just don’t share those feelings at this point.
Funniest single moment, for me, was a tiny throwaway: When Andrew recognized Spike and Angel were being obsessive and said, “Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyeah, she’s not here.” Volumes of information were conveyed with that single line, from Andrew having a moment of clarity about the personalities of the people in front of him, to the subtle but unmistakable communication of where his loyalties truly lie. Subtext: Guys, you’re freaking me out, and Buffy doesn’t need this, so I’m going to be as minimally helpful as I can get away with, and you two can suck on it. 
Tom Lenk’s delivery was perfect, and I howled.
Oh, and the ostensibly unforgivable oversight of not notifying Fred’s parents: Doesn’t that tell you everything about Wes not really admitting to himself that Fred is dead? If there’s a scrap of hope he can rescue her, and bring her back, and avoid killing her parents with grief, wouldn’t he take it? Doesn’t his failure to contact Fred’s parents suggest that, despite everything he’s said, he still hasn’t wanted to admit that all is lost? And now his refusal to come to terms has made things worse? I’ll concede, this could have been actually covered in the show, and might have made a powerful plot point: At the end of the episode, he says to Illyria, “Don’t do it again,” and then she should have said, “I wouldn’t have needed to if you’d kept them informed, but you’re still hanging onto a shred of hope, even after all this time,” or whatever: the point being, “Don’t try to blame all of this on me, puny human.” I think that was there, but under the surface. Would you guys have been happier if it had been discussed explicitly?
Good point Cervaise on the Wes/Illyria stuff. That would explain why Wes hadn’t notified her parents. It still bugs me that it was her last request to him. Her dying request. But I guess Wes is/has gone through a lot, and could understand why he is acting the way he is.
I also agree 100% with your take on the show. I think I’ve said before, I’d love to see plotlines wrapped up, but with only 2 episodes left now, I’m just going to sit back and enjoy the entertainment…and I found last night’s episode VERY entertaining.
Put me in the “I’d have enjoyed this episode a lot more if the series wasn’t two episodes away from being over, and, hey, what about the apocalypse?” column. It was a pretty good episode, but not a great one, and it seemed out of place this close to the series finale.
I thought a lot of the Italy scenes were contrived, although I did enjoy the Spike/Angel bonding over their mutual love for Buffy. I also like the fact that Spikej seems resigned to the fact that Spuffy will never be a happenin’ thang, but he still cares for her.
I loved the Fred/Illyria bits. Am I the only one who caught Illyria’s longing look over the railing at the Burkles? I think that now that she’s had a lot of the wind knocked out of her sails, she’s feelilng Fred’s memories a lot more. I think she’s starting to want to be human, even if she’s not ready to admit it yet (think S4 Anya only with more angst.) She has the memories, including the memories of human feelings, and now she wants to experience them. I also think that she"s been developing warm fuzzy feelings toward Wesley in her own right, independent of Fred’s memories. I think her cold “this seemed more convenient” and “I wish to explore this more” were in large part bluff. I think she wants to snuggle, and she wants to snuggl with Wes.
Oh, and best line of the episode…
“Will you hold my head under the water?”
While I didn’t like the episode as a whole, the Wes/Illyria parts were very good. And Amy Acker was amazing in the role. The way she could switch personalities and voices is first-rate acting.
Wesley, yes, understandable. But Angel is the boss. He is the one responsible for his team and if any one on his crew is killed, it’s his responsibility. Willow called Angel when Buffy died. When I saw that Fred’s parents didn’t know, I found it so unlikely, all I could think was “rubbish!”
Thea Logica - yeah, I would totally have thought this episode fun if it hadn’t been the third last. But now, I don’t really know or care who the Big Bad(s) is/are. There’s no nemesis that’s really meaningful to me right now. The senior partners are still relatively ambiguous entities. We never got really meet or despise them, or relish their evilness because they’ve been so unseen. When I think of all the other baddies I used to love to hate – Holtz, the Red Rock Demon, the Firefly Chick, Angelus, even Lilah was delicious as a bad guy…
The “senior partners” just don’t instill that dread or awe. Down to two episodes… I just don’t expect they’ll be able to build up the intrigue for the denouement. I don’t really care. Though I kind of hope that the Wolf, Ram and Hart are some kind of wolf, ram and venison kind of demons. Hyuck.
Sticking a “funny” episode here just made me really cynical about the finale. Can you tell?
Predictions:
I’m already kind of guessing that Angel will turn to Connor as a co-champion and that’s how all the redemptive/uplifting stuff will take place. Lorne and/or Wesley will get killed. Lorne’s character is likeable but has had no real role this season and no real future in the Jossverse so he can be killed, and Wesley is the next biggest favourite after Spike, so it would be really dramatic to kill him. Illyria has too much potential for a good story arc on whatever Joss does next, like “Ripper”, or (perish the thought)“Connor: The Series”, so Illyria’s future will be left ambiguous. And Spike will survive as a vamp because fans would find it unforgiveable if anything changed about him. Gunn will be going off with Illyria out of a sense of duty if Wesley bites it. Otherwise, he’ll be left in charge of whatever is left of WR&H once the baddies are rousted.
Was this Immortal character ever mentioned before, or was he introduced in this episode?
We will speak no more of them.
I liked the Ciao…Prego…Kiss-Kiss, everybody’s happy! That and the cleavage.
And by the way, Angel is the CEO of W&H. Meaning that if he asks some underling heading up a branch office for his assistance, she’d better give it to him and pronto. All the time I was thinking “why doesn’t he just bark at her and tell her to shut the hell up and do what he says?!?”
… “her” assistance.
What? No, Angel is the CEO of the Los Angeles Branch. He’s nothing to the Italy Branch. Ms. Porn Star is the CEO of the Italy Branch. He couldn’t bark orders to anybody in Italy.
I think he’s a new character, but I’m not 100% sure. I don’t recall having heard about him before, but it is possible he was mentioned in passing.
For me, in many ways, Ats ended with 4x22, with Angel looking in through the window to see Connor with his new family.
Let me go off on a tangent. I’ve worked in radio for far too many years. Part of my job was teaching/coaching wannabe DJs to try to find tomorrow’s stars. A lot of them just wanted to be on the air, for the sake of being on the air, for fame or money or whatever. But they had nopthing to say. I used to tell them - “If you’ve got nothing to say, shut up and play a record.”
I have the same feeling re: Angel S.5 and Buffy S.7 and I’ll throw in human nature in the mix.
With Buffy, Joss had a story to tell. Essentially, it ended with Buffy dying in 5x22. That lingering shot of her head stone was perfect. Then UPN came along, offered them a bunch of cash to continue. Problem was, there was no more story to tell. But they had the characters and three or four really strong ideas (which ended up as ‘Once more with Feeling’, ‘Tabula Rasa’, ‘Hell’s Bells’ and maybe the final eps with Tara’s death). Season 7 also contained some gems, but these two seasons were going nowhere, because there was nowhere to go. The story has lost momentum and Joss didn’t have anything more to say about Buffy. Life as the big bad and Magik as an addiction was just plain bad. The slayerettes were painful, our favorite court jester wimpering in the basement was dull.
But hey, everyone got to keep their jobs, money came in, which allowed JW to work on Firefly. So they sort of tried to make an arc out of nothing, and failed, IMO.
It was still enjoyable. I liked the characters and the dialogue was still pretty snappy.
So what happened to Angel? Well, a lot of people on that set got to keep their jobs, they got renewed for another year, with the provision that James Marsters joined the team. Problem was, of course, that he was set to join, since The WB thought he’d help the ratings, not from a motivation relating to the story. Spike was never in Ats S.5 for any dramatical purposes, and it shows. The WB also wanted more stand alone episodes, trying to make Ats Law&Order or CSI, where it doesn’t matter if you see the eps in sequence or skip a few.
Well, they got what they wanted. A show that’s going nowhere. The writers are going through the motions (faking it somehow) and there has been some truly stellar work, such as this week.
But there is no arc to tie up. There are many odds and ends from the past 10.5 seasons of Buffy and Angel, but no way to fix it all. All episodes this year have been throwaways, some better than others, and for me this was top notch. I’m not sure it was labeled as the funniest episode ever, wasn’t it Marsters that said it was the funniest to make. Not the same thing, if such was the case.
Many others have lauded Acker and I can only agree. Fantastic work. Tom Lenk is a comedic genius and ME still has the touch when it comes to mixing cheesy, drama, comedy and tear inducing moments. They might not know where they’re going, but they’re sure going there in style.
9/10
Hell, I thought this was hilarious. Not quite Smiletime hilarious, but a close second for this season. I’m not going to bitch about them wasting time setting up the finale until I actually, y’know, see the finale. And even if it’s 100% unconnected, I can still see it as wrapping up a thematic loose end: the Buffyverse has always been about drama/comedy/horror. So, this episode is the last hurrah of the funny. Maybe next weeks will be scary, and the last one will be dramatic. Or something. At any rate, I laughed my ass off, and that means it was an hour well spent.
My major problem with this season is the way they’ve been handling Spike. I had hoped that he would be the continual outsider, constantly goading Angel by reminding him that he had thrown in with the Bad Guys, and that the outcome of that could only lead Angel and the FG down that slippery slope… Which might have forced some character growth on Angel’s part, when some event occurred that forced him to admit that Spike was right, and seek his help.
I also figured that someone who had gone off and fought to get his soul back, and subsequently died saving the world would have oh, developed some perspective and emotional maturity? Spike had grown considerably as a character from S6 to S7 of Buffy, and I really think that a Spike-centered spinoff would have been a more appropriate development, if Joss had just decided that BtVS was over and geared S7 in that direction. Instead, what do we get? Spike behaving like an adolescent, with no more purpose in life than to annoy his rival for their mutual ex-girlfriend’s affections. Spike used to be my most favoritest character in the Buffyverse. He has slipped into third behind Wesley and Illyria.
Up until mid-season, I was still holding out some hope for a Spike spinoff. I think there is still a lot of story potential, enough for maybe three or four seasons. It would have been workable concept at the end of last season, but right now I think the character has been regressed to something that makes S4 chipped Spike look like… well, S7 unchipped Spike. In S4, Spike truly did serve the function of court jester- he could snark at the “court” of Buffy and the Scoobies and point up their shortcomings. He still could have played that role to Angel and the FG, only with more maturity, but for some reason, the writers didn’t choose to take him in that direction.
I laughed a lot during the episode. I’ll wait a couple of weeks before saying anything about it failing to fit into the overall story at this late date in the final season.
For a while during the early part of the episode, people at my house were expecting The Immortal to turn out to be Dracula. Had to ditch that hypothesis when they said that enchanting people wasn’t The Immortal’s style.