# Angel 5x07 Lineage (12/11 - spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 13, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938 "2003-11-13T00:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/21 "2003-11-13T17:23:09Z")
Hmm…looked to me like security was disabled after the bots landed, but I could be wrong. In which case, how was security disabled, if not by the bots on entering the building? I’m probably wrong, but dammit, I like my theory. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/22 "2003-11-13T17:37:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorgon Heap \* > \*\*I for one did not expect Rogerbot of anything. I figured it would end up with Wes proving himself a man by taking out the ninjabots. Wes’ shooting him at the end astounded me. One of the best TV moments in ages. > > **elf6c** , ninjabot in the warehouse, despite being outfought by Angel, didn’t kill Wes because they needed to go forward with the Plan to infiltrate W&H via his father to do the mojo to Angel to begin with. > > Fred is kinda growing up and becoming stronger, and it is really making her more attractive, in my eyes. > \*\* 1. Until they went into the vault I only had vague suspisions. BTW- there is “shooting” your dad, then there is emptying a full magazine into him. Pointing a gun at Fred = Bad Idea. 2. Wasn’t talking ninja-bot in warehouse, I was talking about Dad-bot in the vault. After he attacked Wes, his cover was blown with Wes- killing him was the logical course of action. They wanted control of Angel- not Wes. Killing Wes/Gunn/Fred would only further that goal. Besides, Wes could (and did) screw up their plans if left alive. Logically dad-bot should have killed him and shut the vault door behind him. 3. Fred has always been pretty strong- remember that payback she was going to drop on the professor last season. Connor found out how tough she was too. Still I loved the episode- I just thought it was one twist too many. I always wondered about the old 2 person pistol stand-off, doesn’t it make sense to shoot first if you are a decent shot? Results if you shoot and keep shooting as Wes has aptly shown: 1. Bad Guy Dies Instantly (headshot, heartshot, ect). 2. Bad Guy get jerked around by the impact, then dies in a hail of gunfire. 3. Bad Guys gets hit, but tries to return fire and misses while dying in a hail of gunfire. 4. Hit him, and while he is wounded he returns fire and hits you. Still you got the first hit in, at best a push. Like playing Roushabou, getting the first hit in means alot. 5. You miss, he misses, then you both empty your pistols at each other. Umm, not the best result. Try spending some time at the range. Wes is shown to be a good shot, so not a concern here. 6. You miss, he kills you. Umm, that sucks. So 6 outcomes, 3 good, 2 pushes, 1 bad. Moral: While the Bad Guys is explaining their plan- shoot them in the head first. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/23 "2003-11-13T17:46:27Z")
Wonderful episode, for all of the reasons detailed above. “You killed half my team.” “Oh. So, how’ve you been?” Knox has GOT to be a baddie. Nobody is that clueless without being an agent of Evil. 😉 And WHAT was “Dad” going to do to/with Angel after he sucked out his free will? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/24 "2003-11-13T18:12:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\* > Best ep so far this season and almost on par with last season. > . \*\* Except that last season pretty much sucked hard. This season, at least in terms of the writing, may easily be the best ever if they keep this up. And can Wes and Fred PLEASE get together already? What the hell is wrong with that girl? Do the writers have to keep torturing Wes? Next week looks like heaven… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/25 "2003-11-13T18:24:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > \*\* > Why didn’t the robo-ninja just kill Wesley in the Vault? He was down and lying there, just snap his neck and the plan works. Why hestitiate to kill Wesley when he first came onto the roof? > \*\* Because then Wesley would be dead and not on the show anymore. 😃 > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Left Hand of Dorkness \* > \*\* > > A couple notes: first, did anyone else start laughing hysterically when Wesley gunned his father down? \*\* Actually, my instant reaction was to say aloud, in a snippy manner: “GET IT NOW, Fred?” ---
**Author:** ![Judith\_Prietht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b19c9b/32.png) [@Judith\_Prietht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Judith_Prietht)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/26 "2003-11-13T18:32:34Z")
I want to have 10,000 of Drew Goddard’s babies. That was one of the most enjoyable episodes of any show I’ve seen this season, and I’m patting myself on the back right now for taping it because I’m totally going to watch it again. I got a few Bond flutterings from Wesley (I loved the double pistol action and the swordfight); haven’t we discussed before the possibility or desire to have Alexis Denisof play Bond when Pierce Brosnan hangs it up? It’s also nice to see Spike move from comic relief to something more substantial. The scene in the elevator with Eve was top-notch. Loved the Harry Potter reference as well; it amuses me greatly to picture Spike reading the series. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/27 "2003-11-13T18:41:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **elf6c** :_ > I was talking about Dad-bot in the vault. After he attacked Wes, his cover was blown with Wes- killing him was the logical course of action. They wanted control of Angel- not Wes. Killing Wes/Gunn/Fred would only further that goal. Besides, Wes could (and did) screw up their plans if left alive. Logically dad-bot should have killed him and shut the vault door behind him. I was thinking that, too, until I came up with this possible take on it. Wes wasn’t intended to wake up and discover **a)** a live-but-injured cyborg to question (I think everyone involved assumed that the syborg Wes ended up questioning was dead), nor **b)** that “Roger” was a cyborg. He should have slumbered away and woken up when it was all over and “Roger” had been airlifted out of harm’s way. I believe that whatever Big Bad orchestrated this attack wanted Wesley (and the rest of the Fang Gang) to either go directly after Wes’ real parents or the Watchers Council (or both). They’d certainly gain more enemies that way, which would be all to the good for the Bug Bad, presumably. Totally great episode. The humor was bang-on, the darkness was also, and it moved the plot forward… WITH NINJAS! **CYBORG** ninjas! What mroe can a girl ask for? ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/28 "2003-11-13T18:43:59Z")
“Bug Bad.” Ha ha ha! Oooh, wait, maybe I just accidently gave away what form this season’s Big Bad will take. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/29 "2003-11-13T18:47:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > Except that last season pretty much sucked hard. Your milage obviously varies. Angel S.4 is among my favorite seasons ever. The others are Babylon 5 S.3+4, Buffy S.3-5. I think I posted last week that I read somewhere that Alexis Denisof is shortlisted as successor to Pierce Brosnan as the next Bond. He has the looks, and he can pull off the action. But would EON productions go for an American? OTOH, Buffy and Angel are very popular in the UK, so maybe. :things that make you go ‘hmmm’: How did Dadbot get in the building in the first place. A member of the watchers council wouldn’t automatically get access to W&H, but are probably on the black list, new management not withstanding. And since Wes wasn’t expecting him - who cleared him? A law firm, evil or not, would not let someone just wander around past the reception desk. ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/30 "2003-11-13T18:51:53Z")
What was the Harry Potter reference that Spike threw out? I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/31 "2003-11-13T18:52:22Z")
This was the first “Angel” I’ve seen since the first six or so eps of season one. I mean, I’d stopped watching when Doyle was still around. Watching this was…well, a bit of an adjustment. Don’t get me wrong; it wasn’t bad. I like what they’ve done with Wesley, and Fred seems cool. At times, though, the writing/characterization seems a bit…well…sloppy. For instance, to me it felt like Spike was just stepping into frame, stopping, addressing the camera with his quip, pausing, then walking out of frame. If I hadn’t watched the previous seven seasons of Buffy, I’d’ve thought that James Marsters couldn’t act to save his life. Which isn’t the case, as he’s done scenes that I’ve found rather impressive. Gunn didn’t seem to have much of a personality, though I’m guessing I missed a lot. Lorne was friggin’ hilarious! Angel…well, I’ve always thought of David Boreanaz as being mostly eye candy. Seeing as he doesn’t even really have that so much anymore, at least not to my tastes, he’s kinda superfluous. Unless he’s evil; then he’s cool. Though his acting does seem a bit better than I remember. Like I said, the Wesley thing was cool…but I don’t know about the rest of it… ---
**Author:** ![kasuo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@kasuo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kasuo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/32 "2003-11-13T18:55:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > **Except that last season pretty much sucked hard.** Blasphemy I say! Blasphemy! ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/33 "2003-11-13T19:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Blasphemy I say! Blasphemy! I meet your blasphemy and raise you a stoning! ---
**Author:** ![Judith\_Prietht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b19c9b/32.png) [@Judith\_Prietht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Judith_Prietht)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/34 "2003-11-13T19:32:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amp \* > \*\*What was the Harry Potter reference that Spike threw out? I missed it. \*\* When Wesley and Fred are in Angel’s office to give him a briefing on the roboninja autopsy Spike pipes up and tells Angel how Wesley was Head Boy at the Watchers Academy, referring to him as “Percy.” Based on Spike’s pop culture predilections I think we’d get on pretty well IRL. I’d probably have to be coerced into Passions but that could be accomplished through some lengthy boot knockin’. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/35 "2003-11-13T19:39:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmm…looked to me like security was disabled after the bots landed, but I could be wrong. In which case, how was security disabled, if not by the bots on entering the building? > > I’m probably wrong, but dammit, I like my theory. The power went out (which struck me as odd because I would think W&H would be mostly if not entirely off the grid), we had a brief scene with Angel and Gunn talking about various departments including security being cut off and then a shot of ninjabots on the roof. I assume the ninjabots cut the power, thus disabling security. ---
**Author:** ![joshmaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@joshmaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joshmaker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/36 "2003-11-13T20:59:00Z")
I think Beadalin is right; leaving Wes alive as a witness was the easiest way to ensure that Wesley’s father took the blame. Initially I felt that having Roger Wyndam-Pryce turn out to be a cyborg was a bit of a cop out, but it does explain how he could to disable the dead cyborgs autodestruct mechanism. Anyway, I think making it an illusion was the right decision. All in all a great episode, probably my favorite this season. Lots of cool references for us continuity whores such as: - Wesley’s dad, Angel’s Dad, Spikes mom - Connor’s kidnaping - Spike’s reference to the Buffy-bot and to Pavayne - Spike and the Amulet good, good stuff. I also loved Spike’s conversation with Eve, Wes’s fight scenes, and the snappy conversation in general. Lots of unanswered questions left at the end – but that is fine with me. I think that the story arch is finally coming out. So far we seem to have two main unresolved plot threads: 1.) Spike’s resurrection [For what purpose? Was it meant for Angel? Connected to the Shanshu prophesy?] 2.) Crazy Cyborg Ninjas [Who are they working for – the forces of good or evil? What do they want with Angel?] Hopefully, this will mean an end for [blah] Monster of the Week. I am looking forward to to next weeks episode also, hopefully we will get a good does of the always entertaining Angelus. ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/37 "2003-11-13T21:34:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\*I think I posted last week that I read somewhere that Alexis Denisof is shortlisted as successor to Pierce Brosnan as the next Bond. He has the looks, and he can pull off the action. But would EON productions go for an American? OTOH, Buffy and Angel are very popular in the UK, so maybe. > \*\* I thought that Hugh Jackman had pretty much sewn that one up. Maybe he and Denisof could duke it out for the role. Adamantium claws vs. collapsable swords! Now there’s a movie! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/38 "2003-11-13T22:13:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by elf6c_ > Wasn’t talking ninja-bot in warehouse, I was talking about Dad-bot in the vault. After he attacked Wes, his cover was blown with Wes- killing him was the logical course of action. They wanted control of Angel- not Wes. Killing Wes/Gunn/Fred would only further that goal. Besides, Wes could (and did) screw up their plans if left alive. Logically dad-bot should have killed him and shut the vault door behind him. Yeah, except that the cyber-ninjas are _good guys_. They clearly know a whole lot about Angel and the MoG. The one posing as Roger had to study Wes in deep enough detail to succesfully pass as his father. I suspect he didn’t kill Wes because he knows that Wes isn’t evil. Heck, he might even have felt sorry for him for having such a dick for a dad. Plus, they know about the whole “puppet for the Powers that Be” _and_ they know that the Powers that Be aren’t all they’re cracked up to be. I think they know that Angel etc. are good guys, but consider Angel too dangerous to be left running around on his own. Especially now that they’re at W&H. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/39 "2003-11-13T22:32:34Z")
As Jasmine demonstrated last season, fighting the bad guys does not make you a good guy by default. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938/40 "2003-11-14T00:20:02Z")
I muchly liked it. Wes referring to Fred as his muscle was good, and his speech to the injured cyborg was very bad-ass. I had a few concerns about the idea of using cyborgs (heck, I’ve never liked the idea of tech in Buffy/Angel) but that is a minor quibble. What did Spike yell in the elevator? I missed it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x07-lineage-12-11-spoilers/212938.md?page=3)