# Angel 5x13 02/11/04 'Why we fight' (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 11, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736 "2004-02-11T23:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/1 "2004-02-11T23:10:14Z")
As was evident from the promo, this was yet another stand-alone with a few references to a somewhat ongoing arc. Goddard and DeKnight did a good job writing it and I liked the way it explored the relationship between Spike and Angel. Lacking somewhat in humor, but thankfully not any too long wirefighting scenes. Some odds and ends: - Spike really must like those long leather coats. - So this was the birth of the initiative. Kinda nice continuity. - Yes, Gunn is going native big time. - That end scene with Spike and Angel - are they finally coming to terms with each other? - I suppose that what Angel did in the sub was to mirror what the MoG do now, i.e. some evil needs to be done for the greater good, and that this connects to the title of the week. The connection wasn’t strong enough, IMO. It just felt contrived. - Angel’s comment about needing a reason fits well with the theme of the season. All in all, it was enjoyable, but I wish they got an arc going. Knowing that the WB wanted more stand alones, I can understand why the season is looking the way it does. But I’m not downloading the show for a show that’s totally stand alones, and waiting eagerly and checking my sources on Wednesday evenings so I can get my hand on it. If they’re all stand alones, I can do what I do with C.S.I. and just download a bunch when I’m bored or knowing that if I miss it this week, I can pick it up again next. The things that attracted me to shows like this, B5, Buffy, 24, is that the longer story arcs leave the writers room for a show driven by character and depth of character. That’s interesting television, Monster of the Week™ is not. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/2 "2004-02-12T03:03:22Z")
OMG, an evil puppet episode next week? Why, God, _why_??? ---
**Author:** ![ScottCannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@ScottCannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScottCannon)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/3 "2004-02-12T03:10:08Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > OMG, an evil puppet episode next week? Why, God, _why_??? Ah god this will be the best ep ever! [http://www.vgzone.com/hosted/users/h\_a/somethingawful/smiletime1.jpg](http://www.vgzone.com/hosted/users/h_a/somethingawful/smiletime1.jpg) [http://www.vgzone.com/hosted/users/h\_a/somethingawful/smiletime2.jpg](http://www.vgzone.com/hosted/users/h_a/somethingawful/smiletime2.jpg) [http://www.vgzone.com/hosted/users/h\_a/somethingawful/smiletime3.jpg](http://www.vgzone.com/hosted/users/h_a/somethingawful/smiletime3.jpg) [http://www.vgzone.com/hosted/users/h\_a/somethingawful/angelpuppet.jpg](http://www.vgzone.com/hosted/users/h_a/somethingawful/angelpuppet.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/4 "2004-02-12T03:17:36Z")
Jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![TheWatcherInTheWater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9d8465/32.png) [@TheWatcherInTheWater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheWatcherInTheWater)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/5 "2004-02-12T03:20:42Z")
LOL! OMG! I can’t wait. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/6 "2004-02-12T03:24:21Z")
I hope, hope, hope they market an Angel puppet now. I want an Angel puppet more than I’ve ever wanted any Whedonverse merchandise (except my Cardboard!Spike). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/7 "2004-02-12T03:24:22Z")
I liked the episode quite a bit and as a whole the season is quite enjoyable but I agree the plot stand alone structure is somewhat unfortunate. I’m hoping that they are slipping in a lot of plot points they plan to tie together soon into a plot arc. As for the puppets I trust in ME, I trust in ME, I trust in ME. Just keep repeating it and the fear vanishes. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/8 "2004-02-12T03:28:23Z")
Buffy had an evil puppet episode. One of the worst ever, except for the _Oedipus Rex_ ending. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/9 "2004-02-12T03:30:04Z")
Except on Buffy, it was neither evil nor a puppet… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/10 "2004-02-12T03:42:09Z")
So my wife tells me. :o Damn you people with your… facts and … knowledge! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ThatGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e5b9ba/32.png) [@ThatGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThatGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/11 "2004-02-12T04:07:52Z")
So i guess i’m the only one who thought this week was pretty boring and felt disconnected from the rest of the season. So far this season has had a few ups for me…but if this stand alone trend continues Angel S5 may be the only buffyverse DVD set i won’t want to buy…here’s praying for next week… ---
**Author:** ![joshmaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a587f6/32.png) [@joshmaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joshmaker)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/12 "2004-02-12T04:32:51Z")
I was kinda disappointed with this episode. I have really like previous flashback episodes, but this one seemed like it was lacking energy. I rate it as OK but not great. Next weeks episode, however, looks absolutely _terrible_. I have no idea how ME could possibly pull that off. So far I think this is shaping up to be one of the weakest seasons of Angel. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/13 "2004-02-12T05:58:16Z")
Wow, this season is almost as boring as (post-Doyle) season one was. It’s going to get more interesting again, right, for more than every other episode? Please? ---
**Author:** ![Tanaqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Tanaqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaqui)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/14 "2004-02-12T06:13:38Z")
I definitely haven’t found this season boring. But then, I’m easily amused, and I haven’t watched the entire run of Angel. I liked Spike in the flashbacks, and the other two evil dudes cracked me up (like I said, easily amused.) I thought it was interesting that he (the guy Angel sired) had ‘a little bit of soul.’ It made his actions make a bit more sense. I didn’t understand why a normal vampire would care so much. PS: Does anyone here watch Smallville also? Talk about sucking. After that pathetic excuse for a Fast & the Furious ripoff, Angel seemed like Shakespeare. And the next episode looks to be even worse. I didn’t think that was possible til I saw the previews. The B-plot about Adam was about 1000x more interesting. And that was mostly because of Lex. (Though there _was_ a pleasant lack of Lana. Thank God.) ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/15 "2004-02-12T06:27:45Z")
Kind of a colorless episode. Too much backstory, not enough payoff. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/16 "2004-02-12T07:10:47Z")
I thought this was a _fantastic_ episode! The ambivilance and responsibility Angel feels towards his “family” was very striking in this episode. He knew that Spike and Lawson would go off to kill again–he _knew_ it–and I suspect he still feels guilt over allowing Spike to live, but he did it anyway because Spike is _his_. And his reasons for vamping Lawson were good but conflicted, I love conflicted Angel. I think this episode really goes a long way in explaining his relationship with Spike, and why he lets Spike stick around. It also brings up questions of when a soul does or doesn’t matter. Angel vamped Lawson with a soul, and Lawson claimed he got apiece of Angel’s soul–and yet he has 60 years of blood “like dust” in the back of his throat. Did Knox have a bit of Spike’s soul? I know this probably won’t happen, but think–what if Angel had to choose to lose one of the MoG–his new family–and instead (knowing what happened to Lawson) choose to vamp him/her instead? What if he got to them before they had the chance to kill, before their soul was tainted? Finally, maybe Cordy’s speech really didn’t give Angel the pep he needed. “A reason”. His he still looking for a reason to fight? I’m getting whiffs of Beige Angel here…does he fight for his own redemption? Does he fight for the greater good? Does he fight for his family? Who/what does he feel the most responsibility to? Because the responsibility is still weighing very heavily on him. On all of them–what are they working for anymore? And, ok, really finally. The last scene with Angel and Spike was another pitch-perfect moment. God, i want the two of them to have each other’s backs (in a totally non-slashy way. Everybody knows Angel loves Wes anyway…😉 ) Spike is trying to find his place–his reason–as well. Will it fit with Angel’s? I hope so. I’ve loved this entire season, and I’m excited about the next 9 episodes. Maybe I’m easy, but I’ve been playing catch-up on the other episodes of Angel, and I haven’t been bored or displeased with a single episode. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/17 "2004-02-12T07:14:16Z")
Oh, and I love Prince of Lies. And I love that his _name_ is Prince of Lies. As in “Hi, I’m Prince of Lies” instead of “Yo, I’m _the_ Prince of Lies.” Hee! And also, great continuity moments! “I was Rasputin’s lover!” (Remember, Buffy claimed Rasputin sounded like a demon in her college class…) “I don’t want to be stuck at the bottom of the ocean”. “I don’t want them messing with my brain.” _hugs Drew_ ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/18 "2004-02-12T09:18:25Z")
I totally agree with **Pepperlandgirl** - there was great continuity, if not in the ongoing story, then in the backstory. The only thing is, I wish this ep had been earlier in the season. In hindsight, the whole subplot with Lindsey (much as I like him) wasn’t going anywhere. And sending off Spike and Angel to fight for that cup was stupid. indsight is a wonderful thing, but were I designing the season, it would go something like this: The PTB are concerned with Angel’s choice of going into the belly of the beast. They send back Spike, to try to bring him back on track. The animosty 'tween the two vamps prohibit that so the PTB sends back Cordy for one last visit, which brings Spike and Angel closer together. Sub episode fits well into that and could provide a better connection with the arc. Now, cue Lindsey with a smarter plan. IOW, just reshuffle a bit. And I think Angel as a Muppet is going to be great. I’m hyped from seeing the pix. ---
**Author:** ![audit1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@audit1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audit1)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/19 "2004-02-12T12:23:35Z")
Vampires I can believe in. Ghosts no problem. Witches, Demons Ninja Robots. big deal. But ,attaching weights to Angel dropping him 400 feet down on top of a sumerged submarine, and crawling in through the torpedo tube. NO WAY. First locating said sub in the time required. Second How does Angel open the outer door of the torpedo tube from the outside. Third . How does he close the tube door once hes in.? ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736/20 "2004-02-12T13:01:49Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Did Knox have a bit of Spike’s soul? Er,… could someone spoil that for me? I’m kinda hazy on it and may have missed a chunk of an episode. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-5x13-02-11-04-why-we-fight-spoilers/228736.md?page=2)