# Angel fans: do you prefer Fred or Illyria? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 8, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504 "2011-12-08T14:46:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/1 "2011-12-08T14:46:01Z")
As a character, of course. There’s no sense in asking which you’d rather have sex with, because Illyria will kill you for trying. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/2 "2011-12-08T14:47:35Z")
Fred was a sweetie, but Illyria was much more interesting as a character. Besides, Illyria can appear as Fred when she wants to, so she wins hands-down. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/3 "2011-12-08T14:49:10Z")
Fred She appeared in the show way more. I did like the boldness of storytelling to wipe her out, though. The elimination of her soul was a very bold move. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/4 "2011-12-08T15:06:44Z")
One rumored plot twist of the next season–that they didn’t get: Fred came back but Illyria was still there. In separate bodies, I think. Which one would Wesley choose? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/5 "2011-12-08T15:08:19Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > One rumored plot twist of the next season–that they didn’t get: Fred came back but Illyria was still there. In separate bodies, I think. > > Which one would Wesley choose? Fred in a heartbeat. At best he TOLERATED Illyria because she was the last echo of Fred. Vile bitch. Yes, I mean Illyria, and no, I am not saying that approvingly as I sometimes might. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/6 "2011-12-08T16:06:21Z")
You can’t really judge Illyria using human morality, Skald. She was a Lovecraftian Elder God in the body of a cute little Texan. Such creatures are beyond our ken, and our Barbie, too. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/7 "2011-12-08T16:12:52Z")
Fred, of course. Though I did love Lilah. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Fred > > She appeared in the show way more. I did like the boldness of storytelling to wipe her out, though. The elimination of her soul was a very bold move. I found that absolutely horrifying. This sweet woman, who’s done nothing but try to make the world a better place, gets a fate worse than any of the biggest bad guys ever? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/8 "2011-12-08T16:25:27Z")
I could not abide Amy Acker in “Angel.” Later, in “Dollhouse,” I began to appreciate her more. And also notice how beautiful she is. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/9 "2011-12-08T16:27:09Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Fred, of course. Though I did love Lilah. > > I found that absolutely horrifying. This sweet woman, who’s done nothing but try to make the world a better place, gets a fate worse than any of the biggest bad guys ever? ☹ I loved that bit, because it reinforced one of Whedon’s great strengths as a writer: Though his stories have fantasy elements, they really _aren’t_ fantasies. Yes, there may be spaceships or vampires or brainwashed superbabes- but the world still has the blend of good people and bad people bouncing against each other, usually not knowing all (or even most) of what’s going on, and just trying to muddle through. And above all else, sometimes stuff Just Happens - random, stupid stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you’re a Good Person. And on that level - the most important level - Whedon’s writing is ruthlessly realistic. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Vile bitch. Yes, I mean Illyria, and no, I am not saying that approvingly as I sometimes might. Hey, Illyria never harmed Fred. Her resurrection process did that, but Illyria was no more reponsible for that than an infant whose mother died in childbirth. ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/10 "2011-12-08T16:30:49Z")
I voted for Fred because without Fred, Illyria isn’t nearly as compelling. Illyria entertained me every time she was on screen and Fred annoyed me at times. Imagine Illyria showing up independently though, then she’s just this weird, directionless immortal with way too much power. She’s a bizarre, useless character if Fred didn’t have to die for her to appear. I think Fred remains a good character without Illyria and without dying. I think she was a better and more interesting character given that everyone loved her and she died in a horrible, horrible fashion. Angel was a brilliant show because of Wesley’s character arc; yearning for and angsting over Fred is an essential part of torturing Wesley and sad as it was, it made for damned good t.v. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/11 "2011-12-08T16:34:31Z")
As to the poll - Lilah, far and beyond any other character on any Whedon series. She’s _fun_. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/12 "2011-12-08T16:39:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You can’t really judge Illyria using human morality, Skald. She was a Lovecraftian Elder God in the body of a cute little Texan. Such creatures are beyond our ken, and our Barbie, too. You got that right. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/13 "2011-12-08T16:41:56Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Hey, Illyria never harmed Fred. Her resurrection process did that, but Illyria was no more reponsible for that than an infant whose mother died in childbirth. No, Illyria’s acolyte Knox was responsible, however, you can’t let Illyria off the hook. She’s responsible for her underling’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/14 "2011-12-08T16:46:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You can’t really judge Illyria using human morality, Skald. She was a Lovecraftian Elder God in the body of a cute little Texan. Such creatures are beyond our ken, and our Barbie, too. I have shared with you Athena’s feelings about the puns. This is your last warning. And I certainly can judge Illyria using human morality. You are perhaps confusing the meanings of _can_, _may_, _should_, and _ought_. Illyria is a sentient being interacting with humans, in a way that humans can understand. She is indifferent to human suffering and hostile to human interests. Her claims of inscrutability are no more credible than Jenny McCarthy’s claim to medical expertise. And I must add that even Illyria, ultimately, felt she had done wrong by Fred (or, rather, that what she had done to Fred was wrong because of what it had done to Wesley); it was just that there was no way to undo it. (I understand that the Angel comic book may put the lie to that last clause, but I haven’t read it and so shan’t comment. The depiction of a busty Fred put me off it completely.) > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > As to the poll - Lilah, far and beyond any other character on any Whedon series. She’s _fun_. Lilah is fun to watch as a character, I don’t think you’d want to actually know her, even long enough for a one-night stand. That said, I quoted this post rather than your first one because I think, in an odd way, it’s at odds with your contention that Illyria never harmed farm. I think that Lilah – who, whatever her sins, was ruthlessly truthful with herself and with morality – would have disagreed. To live outside the law, you must first be honest. Just because Illyria didn’t set out to harm Fred _in particular_ doesn’t mean she bore no guilt for what her rebirth (which I believe she arranged) would do to Fred. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/15 "2011-12-09T00:02:02Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I loved that bit, because it reinforced one of Whedon’s great strengths as a writer: Though his stories have fantasy elements, they really _aren’t_ fantasies. Yes, there may be spaceships or vampires or brainwashed superbabes- but the world still has the blend of good people and bad people bouncing against each other, usually not knowing all (or even most) of what’s going on, and just trying to muddle through. And above all else, sometimes stuff Just Happens - random, stupid stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you’re a Good Person. And on that level - the most important level - Whedon’s writing is ruthlessly realistic. True. I wouldn’t have been bothered by her dying. It was her losing her soul, a worse punishment than anything else possible, that shocked me. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/16 "2011-12-09T00:53:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Fred in a heartbeat. At best he TOLERATED Illyria because she was the last echo of Fred. > > Vile bitch. Yes, I mean Illyria, and no, I am not saying that approvingly as I sometimes might. Yeah, yeah, you’re right. Fred’s cutesie Texan act just annoyed me. But Wesley would certainly have gone with her if she’d miraculously reappeared. Illyria had just begun to feel something akin to human emotion; wonder how she would have handled jealousy? She’d also begun to be part of the “team.” Would Dear Wittle Fweddie have understood it when Wesley didn’t shun the vile bitch entirely? Yup, they could have gotten some good drama out of one more season. The Tiny Texan was another bad/good/bad guy. And those flashbacks to Angelus & Darla & Spike & Drusilla laying waste to Europe were good fun… ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/17 "2011-12-09T01:05:35Z")
I didn’t realize how boring the Fred character was until Illyria came along. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/18 "2011-12-09T01:14:52Z")
(who knew there was so much Lilah love out there? weird.) I voted Fred, but given a time machine and a Joss-hypnosis device, I would never undo what happened. It was Fred’s very awesomeness and charm that made “Hole in the World” such a classic Whedon Gut-punch. Ilyria never had time to develop very far beyond a way to keep Amy Acker on the show and simultaneously keep twisting the knife of Fred’s death. I’m sure she would have become great in her own right given time, though. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/19 "2011-12-09T01:16:45Z")
I HAAATED Fred. She only got at all interesting when she was dying. That awful “cute” sort of manufactured “charming” just crawls up my last possible nerve. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/20 "2011-12-09T01:18:22Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I found that absolutely horrifying. This sweet woman, who’s done nothing but try to make the world a better place, gets a fate worse than any of the biggest bad guys ever? ☹ It was horrifying. It left quite the impression and would have made for a very interesting season 6. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504.md?page=2)