# Angel fans: do you prefer Fred or Illyria? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 8, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504 "2011-12-08T14:46:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/21 "2011-12-09T16:36:06Z")
Illyria I liked Fred well enough, but c’mon - Old One! Also, leather… ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/22 "2011-12-09T16:38:35Z")
Love both characters. Fred/Illyria plus Acker’s turn on “Dollhouse” made it clear to me who the real chameleon in the Whedon stable of actors is. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/23 "2011-12-09T16:49:15Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I HAAATED Fred. She only got at all interesting when she was dying. That awful “cute” sort of manufactured “charming” just crawls up my last possible nerve. Fred’s “charm” worked for me because it was clear that she was trying to accomplish an impossible task: to _seem_ normal when she was in fact nuts. And it was reasonable for her to be nuts after what she’d gone through in Pylea. Her enthusiasm was _supposed_ to be an over-compensation, and there were more than a few moments when we saw the darkness and pain lurking beneath it. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/24 "2011-12-09T16:54:39Z")
If they got their season 6 and the planned “Fred comes back/splits herself from Illyria” arc, how would they have handled the whole “Fred’s soul is gone” thing? Or was that line added after they knew the show wasn’t getting renewed, and presumably wouldn’t have been put in otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/25 "2011-12-09T16:58:00Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > One rumored plot twist of the next season–that they didn’t get: Fred came back but Illyria was still there. In separate bodies, I think. > > Which one would Wesley choose? Neither, he was dead. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/26 "2011-12-09T17:29:43Z")
> [@Chopper9760](#): > > Angel was a brilliant show because of Wesley’s character arc; yearning for and angsting over Fred is an essential part of torturing Wesley and sad as it was, it made for damned good t.v. Poor guy. Couldn’t have the woman he really wanted and had to settle for [this](http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/2200000/lilah-angel-2270240-1024-768.jpg). > [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Neither, he was dead. In the _Angel_ universe, that barely qualifies as an inconvenience. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/27 "2011-12-09T17:50:27Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > In the _Angel_ universe, that barely qualifies as an inconvenience. Nah, in Supernatural death is a mere inconvenience. On Buffy, death was pretty serious. Who was resurrected in Buffy verse? - Angel - Buffy - That Frankenstein episode guy - Spike, but I don’t think he really died when he burned up(did he??) Who else actually got resurrected? I wouldn’t count Lilah. I mean, maybe, but we only see her once post-death. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/28 "2011-12-09T18:11:37Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Nah, in Supernatural death is a mere inconvenience. On Buffy, death was pretty serious. Who was resurrected in Buffy verse? > > - Angel > - Buffy > - That Frankenstein episode guy > - Spike, but I don’t think he really died when he burned up(did he??) Well, the comment was about the dilemma Wesley would have faced in a hypothetical sixth season choosing between Illyria or a back-from-the-dead Fred, so: - Fred And wouldn’t “Back From the Dead, Fred” be a great band name? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/29 "2011-12-10T01:14:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You can’t really judge Illyria using human morality, Skald. She was a Lovecraftian Elder God in the body of a cute little Texan. Such creatures are beyond our ken, and our Barbie, too. Yes he can. Just like you can judge vampires as needin’ killin’. They want to destroy us, we judge them of not deserving to live. And I really don’t care that Fred’s soul death is not Illyria’s fault. Because, at that point, my suspension of disbelief was shattered. It was clear that the purpose was to get rid of a character I loved in the worst way possible. I do blame Illyria as killing off Fred is the sole reason she exists. Because, otherwise, it made no dramatic sense. There is no in-story reason why this had to happen this way. Fiction is not real life–everything that happens has to have a reason. An asspull is bad enough when it’s used to help things out, but when it’s used as something as serious as a soul death\*? Nuh-uh. When I learned that Illyria meant that Fred didn’t exist at all, I stopped watching _Angel_. I only know what I know now because I always read the wiki before commenting. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/30 "2011-12-10T01:18:04Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Nah, in Supernatural death is a mere inconvenience. On Buffy, death was pretty serious. Who was resurrected in Buffy verse? > > - Angel > - Buffy > - That Frankenstein episode guy > - Spike, but I don’t think he really died when he burned up(did he??) > > Who else actually got resurrected? I wouldn’t count Lilah. I mean, maybe, but we only see her once post-death. Lilah was still dead, she just had a contract with W&H that didn’t expire at death. Also, other than the way all vampires are dead, Angel never really died, he just got sent to a hell dimension at the end of Buffy season 2. And Spike was very much dead, that’s why he was a ghost at first on Angel. Another one who did get brought back was Darla. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/31 "2011-12-10T03:48:15Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I found that absolutely horrifying. This sweet woman, who’s done nothing but try to make the world a better place, gets a fate worse than any of the biggest bad guys ever? ☹ That it was so horrifying was what made it so great. It was really an interesting way of killing a character off and I wish we had more time to explore it. Alas, it was really time for the show to end. ---
**Author:** ![SuperNelson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@SuperNelson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperNelson)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/32 "2011-12-10T18:42:05Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, the comment was about the dilemma Wesley would have faced in a hypothetical sixth season choosing between Illyria or a back-from-the-dead Fred, so: > > - Fred > And wouldn’t “Back From the Dead, Fred” be a great band name? Or “Once Dead Fred.” ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/33 "2011-12-10T19:34:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You can’t really judge Illyria using human morality, Skald. She was a Lovecraftian Elder God in the body of a cute little Texan. Such creatures are beyond our ken, and our Barbie, too. > [@zamboniracer](#): > > You got that right. 🙂 No he (she?) didn’t - if you’re going to lower-case ken you also have to lower-case barbie. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/34 "2011-12-11T20:32:55Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > It was horrifying. It left quite the impression and would have made for a very interesting season 6. > [@Odesio](#): > > That it was so horrifying was what made it so great. It was really an interesting way of killing a character off and I wish we had more time to explore it. Alas, it was really time for the show to end. It was a step too far for me, but YMMV, of course. I’d have ‘liked’ Fred’s soul being gone more if it hadn’t been mentioned as an aside, almost casually, instead of being treated as the really big deal it was. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/35 "2011-12-12T00:39:02Z")
> [@kelly5078](#): > > I could not abide Amy Acker in “Angel.” Later, in “Dollhouse,” I began to appreciate her more. And also notice how beautiful she is. You didn’t notice how beautiful she is? _Angel_’s makeup artists worked their tails off trying to make her look plain and mousy. And failed miserably. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/36 "2011-12-12T16:24:58Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > You didn’t notice how beautiful she is? _Angel_’s makeup artists worked their tails off trying to make her look plain and mousy. And failed miserably. I don’t think they were trying to make her look plain at all. In her first full season, it’s obvious that both Gunn and Wesley are in love with her; and half the reason Angel wasn’t in the mix was that he was canonically\* in love with Cordelia at that point, though he didn’t want to admit it. Gunn calls her gorgeous to her face. She wasn’t dressed to the nines, true enough, but neither was Cordelia at that point (most of the time). To the comments about the destruction of Fred’s soul: I think a major reason they did that was because they needed the entire group to go off the rails emotionally at her death. Simple death wasn’t going to do it, I think, because in their world that wouldn’t be hopeless. But she was the emotional center of the group; everybody in it liked her much more than they liked anyone else, albeit in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![jharvey963](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/54ee81/32.png) [@jharvey963](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jharvey963)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/37 "2011-12-13T21:22:37Z")
The thing I remember thinking most at the time – holy crap, Amy Acker is a good actress! In her Fred character, you can’t really tell she’s acting, and I was tempted to think that like Michael Cera and his roles, Amy Acker was just like Fred. But then Ilyria came along, and she was completely believable in that character. That fact is emphasized by all of the responses above which accept Fred and Ilyria as completely different characters. It wasn’t Fred trying to act tough and evil. The switch was complete and remarkable. Both Fred and Ilyria were completely believable. And to see “Ilyria” turn into “Fred” when she needed to was both eerie and terrifying. \ What an actress. J. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504/38 "2011-12-14T01:25:59Z")
> [@jharvey963](#): > > The thing I remember thinking most at the time – holy crap, Amy Acker is a good actress! In her Fred character, you can’t really tell she’s acting, and I was tempted to think that like Michael Cera and his roles, Amy Acker was just like Fred. > > But then Ilyria came along, and she was completely believable in that character. That fact is emphasized by all of the responses above which accept Fred and Ilyria as completely different characters. It wasn’t Fred trying to act tough and evil. The switch was complete and remarkable. Both Fred and Ilyria were completely believable. And to see “Ilyria” turn into “Fred” when she needed to was both eerie and terrifying. \ What an actress. > > J. Yes, at one point during the Illyria storyline, I thought to myself it was kinda sad that with Fred dead Amy Acker wouldn’t be on the show any more. Then I quickly :smack::smack::smack:'d myself because clearly there Amy Acker was right in front of me, still on the show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-fans-do-you-prefer-fred-or-illyria/605504.md?page=1)