# Angel Finale... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 20, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093 "2004-05-20T02:00:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/141 "2004-05-25T22:06:43Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > Just watched it on tape. The WB “thank you” seemed to be directed to the cast and crew of Angel, not the fans. As in, thanks for 5 years of excellent material despite never making us any money. > > Lorne did not act on his own: > > Lindsay: “It feels good to say ‘team’ and mean it.” > Lorne: [I forget exactly…he said either “today” or “so you say”] > Lindsay: “What, you don’t think a man can change?” > Lorne: “It doesn’t matter what I think. This is Angel’s plan.” > Lindsay: “You want me to sing?” > Lorne: “I’ve heard you sing…” BANG! > > Clearly, this unsavory task was Angel’s plan, not Lorne’s, and no amount of singing/reading would make a difference. Lorne promised to finish it, and he did, but he made it clear that this was his final act under Angel’s orders. Now the episode **Spin the Bottle** makes a lot more sense. Lorne was sitting by himself telling a story to the empty bar because he finished his mission and left the fight… ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/142 "2004-05-26T15:01:09Z")
> [@Wasabee](#): > > From what I’ve heard… The black thorn symbol is on the ninjabots insides. So one could assume someone from the Black Thorns sent them. If that’s true, it’s a fairly decent assumption. I’m going to try and get the episode to verify that. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/143 "2004-05-26T15:04:55Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > If that’s true, it’s a fairly decent assumption. I’m going to try and get the episode to verify that. Wellll… I have the entire season on tape. So if someone would give me the episode _number_ of the ninjabot episode, I would gladly look into it. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/144 "2004-05-26T15:37:25Z")
Episode 7, Lineage. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/145 "2004-05-26T15:43:47Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Episode 7, Lineage. Allrighty then. I shall give it a look-see before I settle in to watch Enterprise this evening. Happy to be of service. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/146 "2004-05-26T17:50:06Z")
What was the title of Spike’s second poem? Something about his Mum? I can never quite make it out. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/147 "2004-05-26T18:15:48Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > What was the title of Spike’s second poem? Something about his Mum? I can never quite make it out. The Wanton Folly of My Mum, if I recall correctly. That’s nearly it, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/148 "2004-05-26T21:54:42Z")
As far as I can tell? Nope. We don’t get very good looks at the power core, though. It is circular, and there are some triangles radiating, but they appear straight rather than curved (as they are in the Circle of the Black Thorn’s logo) … And I can’t believe personally that Joss would drop in foreshadowing this hard to see even in retrospect. Speculation? The robots’ masters would’ve been dealt with in season 6. Someone with a better tape could go look, though… some of the drones have flat patches atop their head, but those appear to have no symbol… their external garments are likewise undecorated. The power core’s the best bet, if you want to look for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/149 "2004-05-28T14:18:59Z")
I was in the “they all died” camp…until I saw the finale again. When the dragons and demons appeared, Illyria said, “They’re fading fast. They’ll only last 10 minutes at best.” Ha! All they had to do was last for 10 minutes. That’s do-able! Unforutunately Wes is definitely dead. But the rest of them could have survived. Including Lindsey. I cannot wrap my mind around Lindsey’s death, right after he became a swashbuckling hottie. But not Eve. Definitely not Eve. She’s deader than a doornail. A slow, gruesome, painful death it was. Ten minutes? That’s NOTHING. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Norse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/big_norse/32/9954_2.png) [@Big\_Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/150 "2004-05-28T14:28:22Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I was in the “they all died” camp…until I saw the finale again. When the dragons and demons appeared, Illyria said, “They’re fading fast. They’ll only last 10 minutes at best.” > > Ha! > > All they had to do was last for 10 minutes. That’s do-able! Unforutunately Wes is definitely dead. But the rest of them could have survived. Including Lindsey. I cannot wrap my mind around Lindsey’s death, right after he became a swashbuckling hottie. But not Eve. Definitely not Eve. She’s deader than a doornail. A slow, gruesome, painful death it was. > > Ten minutes? That’s NOTHING. I thought she said, “ **You’re** fading fast.” Referring to Gunn. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/151 "2004-05-28T15:00:07Z")
I also thought it was “you’re” in reference to Gunn. Maybe someone who taped or Tivo’ed it can check that out. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/152 "2004-05-28T15:25:40Z")
While watching it, I too thought she said “they’re fading fast”, which made the ending a ton more happy-puppyish. However, after speaking with my wife and rewatching it, I’m almost positive she said “you’re fading fast” to Gunn. I must say it’s threads like this that make me really appreciate the SDMB. Thanks everyone for the ton of imput, the cites, and the speculation. My appreciation for the final episode, which I initally disliked as too simple (based mostly on my mishearing), has grown by leaps and bounds. I rewatched the episode Wed. night and really, really enjoyed it. Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![drewcosten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@drewcosten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewcosten)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/153 "2004-05-28T16:52:06Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > While watching it, I too thought she said “they’re fading fast”, which made the ending a ton more happy-puppyish. However, after speaking with my wife and rewatching it, I’m almost positive she said “you’re fading fast” to Gunn. My Closed Captioning definitely said “you’re,” refering to Gunn. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/154 "2004-05-28T17:37:06Z")
Illyria was very clear that Gunn was on the verge of death. I want to publicly thank **Petelin** for sending me the lost track from ‘Once More With Feeling’. Yay **Petelin**! And, for anyone suffering from withdrawals, James Marsters’ band _Ghost of the Robot_ plays Thursday June 3 at the Crazy Donkey on Route 110 in Farmingdale. I’d go, except Farmingdale is somewhere in the middle of Long Island and I have no idea how to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/155 "2004-05-28T18:01:18Z")
I finally got to watch the show last night. I was a couple of weeks behind, and wanted to catch up. Of course that meant haveing to watch the pos Italy episode. I thought it was a fantastic final episode, and a good way to end. I was semi-expecting an army of Slayers to show up for back up, though. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/156 "2004-05-28T19:23:10Z")
But I’m pretty sure Illyria said the line right after the camera panned to the demons! Didn’t she? I mean, it wouldn’t be fair to kill off Wes AND Gunn AND Cordy AND Fred…all in one stinking season. [Spike]Bloody hell![/Spike] (I’ve really got to find a new hobby.) ---
**Author:** ![petelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/71c47a/32.png) [@petelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/petelin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/157 "2004-05-28T20:22:35Z")
I’m sure Illyria was talking about Gunn. And she wasn’t guessing or worrying, I think she was stating a fact…like she did when she saw Wes’s wound. I think we’re supposed to know Gunn died. Which brings up an interesting point that my sister pointed out. At the end (not counting the results of the battle with the demon army) of Angel, the humans were dead, with the ‘demons’ living: Dead: Fred, Wes, Gunn, Lindsay. Alive: Angel, Spike, Illyria, Lorne, Harm However, the opposite was true with Buffy…the humans lived, and the ‘demons’ died: Dead: Spike and Anya (ok technically not a demon at the time, but it was on her resume for 1100 years) Alive: Buffy, Xander, Willow, Giles, Faith, Wood Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/158 "2004-05-28T23:59:51Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > But I’m pretty sure Illyria said the line right after the camera panned to the demons! Didn’t she? I think she did, but the message wasn’t, “The demons are fading fast,” it was, “You’re fading fast, and you’ve got to kill _aaaalll_ those demons before you go.” ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/159 "2004-05-29T00:47:51Z")
As an interesting aside, the first sides we got for the final ep included Wes’s death _and_ Gunn’s death. Gunn wasn’t originally supposed to make it to the final battle. We spoiler whores didn’t find out that the plan had changed until they released the promo photos of the ep, which included the alley scene. Only Gunn was there…which gave a few of us false hope for Wes. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Norse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/big_norse/32/9954_2.png) [@Big\_Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093/160 "2004-05-29T19:32:23Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I mean, it wouldn’t be fair to kill off Wes AND Gunn AND Cordy AND Fred…all in one stinking season. No less fair than killing off our show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-finale/246093.md?page=9)