# Angel - Reign of Fire **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252 "2002-11-18T03:05:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/21 "2002-11-18T16:27:43Z")
I think they are headed towards the Conner sacrificing himself to save the world. This is a surprise to W&H, because Conner’s birth somehow caused it. He’s already feeling guilty and thinking that it’s all his fault. Him sleeping with Cordy (ewww) is going to cause much pain to everyone involved. I vote for Conner being noble and someone ending this whole thing. The problem with Cordy/Conner is that it makes no sense. She thinks of him as a son practically, you don’t sleep with your son for end-of-world pity sex! Why not contact Angel after big-bad shows up, right where Conner was born? That’s just silly, after all Conner came to Angel when he was worried about Cordy, even called him “Dad” for the first time. You think the two of them would have more sense than that. Bleh, sloppy plotting if you ask me. If she ends up with Conner’s kid the whole thing will be slipping down a notch or three. Even Buffy and the gang got cell phones and know how to use them. One other thought, the demon baddie looks good, but there’s no way to really convey a sense of awesome power in something that is basically an overgrown rubber suit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/22 "2002-11-18T16:48:49Z")
I was disappointed – given the episode’s preview and its title, there were precious few surprises during it. Especially compared to the most recent episodes of Buffy and Firefly, I thought this was kind of a trite, “Yawn, the world’s ending again,” episode. Hell, it wasn’t even W&H’s apocalypse. I’ve got no fear about what’s gonna happen. I do wonder, though, if we get to dust of the old “The Father will kill the son” prophecy. As I recall, the demon said he’d changed the prophecy – maybe he only moved it forward one generation? Maybe Connor is the kid-killing papa? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Obvious\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Obvious\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obvious_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/23 "2002-11-18T17:44:28Z")
Let me get this straight, its the end of the world and instead of banning together to fight the great evil, you bop the guy you loves son. Does that make much sense? And not to mention doing the nasty with broke ribs, thats a first. Does anyone else miss the Cordy of old? Otherwise then that the rest of the show was cool. I especially liked the fight with the demony guy, very cool. Wesly had a crossbow, then hand guns, then sawed off shot gun. I was like where is he hiding all those weapons at? It reminded me of pulling the rabbit out of the hat trick. All in all I give it a 9 out of 10. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/24 "2002-11-18T17:57:37Z")
> [@](#): > > As for Cordy/Connor … well, I’m good at ignoring crap when I see it, so that whole business is just like watching an additional commercial for me - it’s playing, but I don’t have to pay attention. I just refocus when the whup-ass starts up again. Sage advice. A talent I wish I had when the Conner/Cordy sex started. ::shudder:: And the fact that Angel saw it makes it even worse. Will this drive him to madness and bring the return of Angelus? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/25 "2002-11-18T18:03:49Z")
Ya know, it’s a funny thing, but Connor was 16 last season. That’d make him, let’s see, 17? From one of last season’s episodes… > [@](#): > > Cordy and Angel walk down the hall together. > Cordy: “I’m not telling your sixteen year old boy that.” > Angel: “Well, someone has to make sure he knows the facts of life. My track record with the whole man/woman thing isn’t, you know… I don’t wanna use the words ‘tragic farce’ but…” Well, she sure taught _him_ the facts of life… ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/26 "2002-11-18T18:57:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*Will this drive him to madness and bring the return of Angelus? \*\* Information from the PTB tells of a vampire with a soul, who will lose it on purpose to gather the strength needed to fight this season’s Big Bad. The same ancients scrolls mention part demon Cordelia Chase giving him a blissful moment, to achieve this. Angelus will then return to Angel again. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/27 "2002-11-18T19:00:13Z")
**The Gaspode** - Cordy is as much a parent to him as any step-parent may be. Do you not recall the ep from last season with Angel and Cordy lying together on the bed with an infant Connor between them? Talk about foreshadowing! Furthermore, they haven’t mentioned Cordy’s age since she moved to LA, probably because no one would believe that Charisma Carpenter is 21. Face it, she looks late 20’s. I think they’re glossing over the High School three years ago thing. StG ---
**Author:** ![MONTY2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MONTY2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MONTY2)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/28 "2002-11-18T19:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > **And how would you explain calling it incest, BStGermain**? For me it goes like this… Did she ever change his diapers? Yes, then it’s gross and kind of incestual. (That’s the same reason Woody Allen and Sun Yi (sp?) give me the creeps - but that’s another thread.) Technically, no it’s not incest since he is not her son and they are not related by blood, but she said it herself " I don’t know what’s going on but there are pictures of me holding you when you were a baby dated 8 months ago". So 8 months ago, aw hell, a few episodes ago, she thought of him like a child, but now that the world is going to end, “let me give you something that’s real”?!? How about a good book, that’s real…or a freaking pen, that’s real too, but sex with her pseudoson? Yuck and eeewwww and yuck again. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/29 "2002-11-18T20:12:16Z")
Yes, Charisma Carpenter is 32. But Cordelia Chase is 21. Now, maybe ME can cover it up by claiming that the visions took their toll, or that her time as a higher beeing aged her (as uncorporal?). Whatever. She’s 21. If we can believe a green skinned, red horned karaoke demon, we can surely stretch our suspension of disbelief to let Charisma Carpenter be a 21 y.o. Cordelia Chase. I agree tho. She looks her age. Not that I mind. As for the incestous part - she changed his diapers twice and met him as an infant for a couple of weeks. I think it’s kinda icky too, mostly becuase I can’t stand that damned Connor. But incestous? Nah. Had she spent years with him as an infant, it’s another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/30 "2002-11-18T20:28:37Z")
The more I’m thinking about this, the more upset I’m getting. Just last week, Conner took great pleasure in attacking Angel when everyone had lost their memories. Now that Cordy has her memory back, she should know that: Connor is Angel’s child Connor tried to kill Angel, multiple times Angel loves Connor, and would never hurt him purposefully She is in love with Angel How can she know these things and sleep with Connor??? ugh, it disgusts me. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/31 "2002-11-18T20:56:08Z")
Gaspode Couldn’t the “vampire” you are referring to be Conner? He is Darla and Angel’s son, after all. And Cordy did give him one moment of bliss. (I presume he had fun anyway.) I really enjoyed the episode. Wes has surpassed Angel as a hottie. He can brood AND he can do an accent. As far as Conner/Cordy, I imagine they had to write in a father given that CC is pregnant IRL. So that means that she either gets knocked up by a stranger or she gets knocked up by one of the resident studs: a) Angel - Been there, done that w/ Darla. b) Gunn - Have him betray Fred?? c) Wes - Mmmm, possibilities…a way for him to get revenge on Angel AND Lilah at the same time… d) Lorne - much as I like the horned one…but, no. e) Conner - It would have preferred him asking her, tearfully, to allow him one human connection before he died… Not sure which one I would have preferred but I agree that it had a major “ick” factor to it. ---
**Author:** ![cmburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@cmburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmburns)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/32 "2002-11-18T21:48:22Z")
I get confused on the passage of time in the Buffyverse. Is there anyway that Grue could be the father if Charisma’s pregnancy is written into the show? I guess given that he is from another dimension, they could make the gestation period whatever they wanted to. I’m firmly on the side of finding Conner/Cordy to be a very stupid plot twist, not to mention just plain creepy. Regardless of whether he is a blood relation, she is the closest thing to a mother he ever had. And her rationale for not being with Angel but boinking Conner just doesn’t make sense. She was shown in the higher planes being really bored and desperate to get back to Earth, but then she says she can’t be with Angel because of everything she saw. Plus Angel shows a lot more regret for actions that weren’t really his fault than Conner does for his attempted patricide. Cordy should have seen Conner’s sins as clearly as Angelus’ sins. The whole thing stinks of the Ross/Rachel type storyline, where they keep getting closer until some ludicrous plotline tears them apart. “I really love you but I can’t be with you because of what you did hundreds of years ago when a demon was controlling your actions, so I’ll sleep with your sociopathic son because the world is ending and nothing matters anymore.” Right. That being said, I really liked this episode. I’d give it a 10 if it wasn’t for the Cordy/Conner interaction. The final fight scene was just awesome, especially Wes pulling out the twin .45’s. Granted, they didn’t have much effect, but it still looked cool. I do think Angel is going to have to seriously hurt Lila in some way, and soon. There seems to be acknowledgment on his part that the continued glowering threats with nothing to back them up just aren’t cutting it. I’m just not sure what exactly he can do. He could easily physically attack her, but that seems wrong to me for some reason. The episode where Lila got beaten up and Cordy tells her that no man should be able to do that to her always pops into my mind when I start thinking he should just mess her up. I know it’s not the same situation at all, but I still think him just beating her up isn’t going to cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/33 "2002-11-18T22:07:03Z")
**cmburns** , you just reminded me of something–Cordy spent everything she had saved up to buy a potion of chastity-retention so that she and Groo could go kam-shok like bunnies without her visions getting transferred over to Groo. Wasn’t even a blip on the radar this episode. **PunditLisa** –you forgot one: f) the Powers that Be want her pregnant, so she’s pregnant. Who’s the father? Could be anybody. Could be nobody. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/34 "2002-11-18T22:22:16Z")
Wow, what a disappointing episode. The preview from last week made it look like it would be fairly interesting, but instead of focusing on the end of the world, there was the Cordy-Connor creepiness, and the Fred-Gun angst taking center stange for most of the episode. Of course, if this had been written by Chris Carter instead of Josh, this would be the finale :rolleyes: Maybe the next episode will be better. ---
**Author:** ![Tygr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@Tygr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tygr)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/35 "2002-11-18T22:38:01Z")
So who directed that final fight scene, John Woo? Slow motion, yep. Blazing automatic pistol in each hand, yep. Pulling gun-after-gun outta yer ass, yep. The only thing missing was Wes wearing a big, wind-flappy black trenchcoat… > [@](#): > > **One other thought, the demon baddie looks good, but there’s no way to really convey a sense of awesome power in something that is basically an overgrown rubber suit.** Oh, come on. Didn’t you ever see _Legend_? 😛 FCOL, they used virtually the same suit and made Tim Curry look like a badass. Just took a sh_tload of makeup and poor lighting… This time they used a sh_tload of makeup and odd camera angles. And let me just say, by about 9:45, Cordy’s shirt had almost gotten too distracting, y’know? Almost made the final scene a foregone conclusion. Have an ex-Laker girl spend the day with an eighteen-year-old boy in _that_ shirt, he’s gonna find SOME way to make what happened happen. Frellin’ cliffhangers – gonna be a long month & a half… ---
**Author:** ![thirdshiftgrottoslack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9a28c/32.png) [@thirdshiftgrottoslack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdshiftgrottoslack)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/36 "2002-11-19T05:01:57Z")
the neame of the episode should have been “let’s all stand by the windows while balls of fire rain down from the heavens.” damn, get in the bathroom or something. californians are used to earthquakes, you think they could stay out of the way of plummeting hellfire. ---
**Author:** ![kasuo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@kasuo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kasuo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/37 "2002-11-19T05:54:41Z")
Maybe Angel will still kill Connor as prophesized… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/38 "2002-11-19T06:25:47Z")
[Typical Californian]You call _that_ plummeting hellfire? I used to live in the Oakland Hills. **That** was plummeting hellfire.[/Typical Californian] Seriously, if California were hit by the Twelve Plagues of Egypt, no one would notice. I liked the episode. Connor and Cordy didn’t particularly creep me out. She’s known him longer as an adult now than as an infant, they’re not remotely related, they’re vaguely the same age. Hell, go for it. And she didn’t need mystic vision to not want to sleep with Angel. She’s had plenty of first-hand experience with what happens when you give him too much happy. Or, worse, she sleeps with him and he _doesn’t_ go evil. “Oh, sure, with _Buffy_ you go all evil! Guess I’m just not good enough for you!” ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/39 "2002-11-19T06:53:14Z")
Ditto Cordy/Connor-Why?Why? Final Fight-Very Hong Kong Lila- While she was staring out the window, I was wondering if she was going to say something like “Oh dark powers that wait upon the earth, keep Wesley safe and bring him home to me.” At first I thought that he was using her, then that she was using him. Now, it seems they may actually have fallen in love. Wes-The way he’s slowly changed has been amazing. I’ve got to watch his first appearance on Buffy followed immediately by viewing Reign Of Fire. Big Bad-It seemed odd that Cordy even bothered to deny that the BB was connected to Connor. It erupts from the very spot where he was “born”. In the Buffyverse, vampires are part demon. My current theory is that Connor is the child of the human halves of Angel and Darla. BB is the child of the demon halves. I know that when Angel went demon in Pylaea, the demon was not nearly as powerful as BB and had a different appearance. But, that was still a hybrid demon tied to a human host. BB is the first pure demon of this kind. Wizard Of Oz ads- These definitely played up the spooky moments of the film. RE The Eye Of Fire- I thought that this was somewhat stupid. When Gunn saw a pattern, I expected a streetmap. The psychics and demons at W+H would probably miss something that simple. Wes and Angel would be so busy looking for proto-Ugaric petroglyphs and such that they’d miss it too. But Gunn’s experiences in LA would show him the map right away. Instead, it’s just that nobody has bothered to fit together the sheets instead of looking at them singly. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252/40 "2002-11-19T13:17:40Z")
For the most part, all good calls, **Doc**. Especially about the demon/human halves. I hadn’t considered that. As for the final fight scene, well, what’s wrong with Hong Kong? 😃 Another thing about Wes’ transformation over the years, I _really_ wish I had seen the first season of Angel. I’m sure he was badder than the silly poofter he was when he first arrived in Sunnydale, but now … man I wanna make a RPG character after him!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-reign-of-fire/137252.md?page=3)