# Angel (Whedonverse) question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 5, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571 "2009-02-05T16:00:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/21 "2009-02-06T03:40:38Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Per the Buffy wiki, Joss’ notes for the pilot state the Master’s name was Heinrich Joseph Nest and he was 600 years old. That would have made him a little over 200 when he turned Darla in Virginia colony, though, and Angel was close to 300 when we first met him in _Welcome to the Hellmouth_. But that was superceded by the filmed scenes of The Master’s appearance in the flashback of Darla’s vamping. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/22 "2009-02-06T03:53:13Z")
They’re only notes, and just give an indication of the rough age Joss was thinking he would be in the beginning. For all we really know, the Master could be just a few centuries older than Darla, and his grotesque features could be completely independent of his age. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/23 "2009-02-06T04:23:53Z")
Not only is sunlight negotiable, but so is inflammability. Angel sets himself on fire(covered by a cloak) in season 1 of Angel. He suffered no permanent damage because he jumped in the ocean. In season 6 of Buffy, Spike throws a match(or lighter) on a vamp and he goes up in flames nearly instantly. ---
**Author:** ![Fugazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f08c70/32.png) [@Fugazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fugazi)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/24 "2009-02-06T06:58:05Z")
Staking and biting are also variable. Sometimes a vamp gets staked and it’s an immediate poof, dust. Other times they have time to get out a sentence and stagger around a bit before poofing. Then there’s vamps biting humans. Sometimes it’s 2 seconds and the human is dead. Other times, they get sucked on for awhile and still are alive. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/25 "2009-02-06T14:52:19Z")
The staking variable is due to the age and strength of the vamp. New vamps dust instantly, older, stronger ones get a chance for a last line (“Oh, no. No, this is no good at all.”) Biting goes to intent. Does the vamp want to kill, have a meal, or just relax? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/26 "2009-02-06T14:57:00Z")
And, the vampires seem to have really soft chests, especially in the heart area. ---
**Author:** ![parthenokinesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/cc9497/32.png) [@parthenokinesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parthenokinesis)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/27 "2009-02-06T15:20:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Sometimes, you get anomalies like Angel and Spike. Both of them, as humans, were losers, but that was largely due to emotional damage, not intellectual limitations. Once they were freed of their human baggage, they turned out to be exceptionally dangerous vampires, generally to the surprise of the vamps who sired them. I disagree with the the concept of them as anomalies. Vampires are much a product of their previous personalities. Liam was a scoundrel who’s motivation was fun with little regard for consequence, Angelus was the same with superpowers and no conscience. William was filled with passion of love and art driven to aspire to something way beyond his reach, as a vampire he was passionate for mayhem, driven to be the best, and succeeded to a great extent. Also, Spike was fortified by the blood of 2 slayers in his life time, Angel got some of Buffy’s blood before he took to his own series. Isn’t that supposed to make the vampires stronger as well? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/28 "2009-02-06T15:42:07Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Biting goes to intent. Does the vamp want to kill, have a meal, or just relax? Sometimes you nurse your drink, sometimes you throw it down, slam it on the bar, and yell for another. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/29 "2009-02-06T16:01:53Z")
> [@parthenokinesis](#): > > Also, Spike was fortified by the blood of 2 slayers in his life time, Angel got some of Buffy’s blood before he took to his own series. Isn’t that supposed to make the vampires stronger as well? Angel ought to be damn-near invincible now, after getting blood from not only a Slayer, but also from a direct representative of Wolfram & Hart. I know it energized him for the battle, but I wonder what, if any, long-term effects the blood had on him. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/30 "2009-02-06T18:20:50Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Angel ought to be damn-near invincible now, after getting blood from not only a Slayer, but also from a direct representative of Wolfram & Hart. I know it energized him for the battle, but I wonder what, if any, long-term effects the blood had on him. SPOILERS FOR THE FIRST FEW COMIC BOOKS! (I think the first 9) Which Joss considers canon [spoiler] In the ones I’ve read so far (by no means all of them) Angel shanshued and was human. So I guess the long-term effects were basically nil. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/31 "2009-02-06T18:44:36Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The staking variable is due to the age and strength of the vamp. New vamps dust instantly, older, stronger ones get a chance for a last line (“Oh, no. No, this is no good at all.”) I still say the best vampire last words on the show are: "Oh fu-"_FWOOF_ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/32 "2009-02-06T18:45:40Z")
> [@parthenokinesis](#): > > I disagree with the the concept of them as anomalies. Vampires are much a product of their previous personalities. Liam was a scoundrel who’s motivation was fun with little regard for consequence, Angelus was the same with superpowers and no conscience. William was filled with passion of love and art driven to aspire to something way beyond his reach, as a vampire he was passionate for mayhem, driven to be the best, and succeeded to a great extent. That’s actually precisely what I’m saying: by anomaly, I meant that the vampires who sired them (well, in Angel’s case, anyway. Who knows what Dru thought when she sired Spike?) expected to make just another random foot soldier, and ended up creating some of the most dangerous vampires in history. When Darla first met Liam, he was a drunken, womanizing asshole. In hindsight, we can see the same motivations as a human turning him into the incredibly vicious Angelus, but Darla didn’t have that in mind when she turned him. She just saw another loser who’d make good cannon fodder. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/33 "2009-02-06T19:07:37Z")
The way I’ve rationalised the variance in time from staking to poofing, is to think that it depends on just how direct the hit is. That’s why some brand new vamps take a while to go poof, and some older ones go instantly. Maybe the appearance of old vampires doesn’t just depend on how old they are, but how vampish they’ve been - how many people they’ve killed and how many vamps they’ve sired. It seems like the master did a lot of the latter. Or maybe it depends on how old they were when they became vampires. I think the show’s reasonably consistent when it comes to sunlight, though. Sure, some vamps scream more when exposed to direct sunlight, but they don’t actually die any quicker. > [@Miller](#): > > That’s actually precisely what I’m saying: by anomaly, I meant that the vampires who sired them (well, in Angel’s case, anyway. Who knows what Dru thought when she sired Spike?) expected to make just another random foot soldier, and ended up creating some of the most dangerous vampires in history. When Darla first met Liam, he was a drunken, womanizing asshole. In hindsight, we can see the same motivations as a human turning him into the incredibly vicious Angelus, but Darla didn’t have that in mind when she turned him. She just saw another loser who’d make good cannon fodder. Really? She said he was ‘magnificent,’ which sounds like she thought of him as more than cannon fodder. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/34 "2009-02-06T19:23:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s actually precisely what I’m saying: by anomaly, I meant that the vampires who sired them (well, in Angel’s case, anyway. Who knows what Dru thought when she sired Spike?) expected to make just another random foot soldier, and ended up creating some of the most dangerous vampires in history. When Darla first met Liam, he was a drunken, womanizing asshole. In hindsight, we can see the same motivations as a human turning him into the incredibly vicious Angelus, but Darla didn’t have that in mind when she turned him. She just saw another loser who’d make good cannon fodder. I disagree with that assessment of Darla’s motivations. I think she saw _exactly_ what Liam would become, and wanted him to be her “darling boy” (the way she seduced him into it, calling him magnificent, taking him to kill his entire village including his family which was pretty symbolic. She also thought he was pretty hot–we have to look past the wig for that one, lol ). There was never a sense that Darla sired vampires randomly. Actually, both Darla and Spike seemed very reticent to create new vampires. Angelus, on the other hand, seemed to love making new pets, but, then, Angelus (like Angel) was strangely sociable. Like he didn’t want to be alone, ever. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/35 "2009-02-06T19:32:08Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Like he didn’t want to be alone, ever. Which is very much in line with Liam’s personality. A carouser will often have lonliness issues. Come to think of it, what vamps _were_ sired by Spike? Other than those sired while he was under the influence of the First. I’m drawing a blank. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/36 "2009-02-06T19:43:31Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Which is very much in line with Liam’s personality. A carouser will often have lonliness issues. > > Come to think of it, what vamps _were_ sired by Spike? Other than those sired while he was under the influence of the First. I’m drawing a blank. He sired Ford in **Lie to Me** and Marcy in **School Hard**. He might have also sired Dalton (the vamp who liked to read who the Judge killed), but that was never said explicitly. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/37 "2009-02-06T19:53:39Z")
Ford doesn’t really count. He asked, nay _demanded_ to be vamped. It wasn’t Spike making minions. Marcy? The only one I remember from **School Hard** was Shiela, and he took her back to Drusilla as a present. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/38 "2009-02-06T20:12:29Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Ford doesn’t really count. He asked, nay _demanded_ to be vamped. It wasn’t Spike making minions. > > Marcy? The only one I remember from **School Hard** was Shiela, and he took her back to Drusilla as a present. Ack! You’re right about Sheila. I asked my best BTVS friend if that was her name, and she said it sounded right to her–which isn’t the same as being right, I realize, lol. I agree that neither was a case of Spike making minions, I was just listing the times we knew he sired anybody. I think his response to Ford’s demand was an interesting one, though–he didn’t really fancy spending an eternity with ford. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/39 "2009-02-06T20:13:46Z")
Can someone explain why, if vampires don’t breathe, they can get winded in a fight? (Or speak, for that matter.) And if their hearts are tiny, hard, and non-functioning, how is it that they manage to bleed all over the place whenever they get in a fight? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571/40 "2009-02-06T20:24:31Z")
They don’t get winded. The demon energizing them uses its force to make them function. If the vamp gets in a fight, it causes the demon to expend more energy. If the demon hasn’t fed recently, or is lacking in mystical energy stores, it manifests as the vamp being “winded.” When do they bleed? Spike was shot full of arrows and never bled a drop. Maybe you are thinking of fresh vampres, which still retain large quantities of the blood that used to flow through their veins. ets: Gods, I’m a geek. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angel-whedonverse-question/484571.md?page=3)