# Angel's Got His Own Show, He Deserves His Own Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 23, 2001, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089 "2001-10-23T15:05:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Natural-J-Bankie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/59ef9b/32.png) [@Natural-J-Bankie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natural-J-Bankie)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/61 "2001-10-31T01:28:21Z")
Sorry to ask but could sombody go into more detail about the talk between Cordy and Lilah? It seems like it was important. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/62 "2001-10-31T06:44:54Z")
**Natural** : Basically, Cordelia told Lila that if she were really the cast iron bitch she pretends to be, she wouldn’t allow a piece of shit like Billy to treat her like that, and would inflict an equal or greater whupping on him in revenge. Lilah decided to go with “greater.” There was also some stuff about shoes, but you really had to see it to get that part. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/63 "2001-10-31T13:43:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > \*\*We’ve all got demons; what determines our humanity is how well we keep them caged. \*\* That’s kind of one of the main points of the entire series, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Peta\_Tzunami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@Peta\_Tzunami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peta_Tzunami)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/64 "2001-10-31T14:41:56Z")
**On being cliché…** Sometimes I think Joss is being/using a little cliché, sometimes he downright lifts a small portion of plot from another writer, and sometimes he does an homage to classic horror/sci-fi. I also think he likes to take clichés, suck the audience into thinking he’s following the formula and then pull a switch. It is my belief that the Fred-trip-fall was part homage (anyone else thinking “The Shining”?) and part cliché-switcheroo (i.e. weak girly-girly stands up for herself in the end and does what’s needed). Finally, I think Joss played to the fact that Fred, while developing some confidence and ability (using her book smarts), is still awkward and a bit shakey in the earth dimension. One thing I liked about Evil-Wes was that he got her to stop hemming and hawing. I’ve read that studies show women tend to use much more passive voice than men. I think Fred does this a LOT. Wes calling her on Cordelia’s location forced her to speak without all the “I supposes” and “I think…” **On _Evil_ Wesley…** I think Wesley was hard-hit by having his “primal urges” released. And I think we’re going to learn more as the season progresses. I have a feeling it has to do with his belittling father. Wouldn’t surprise me to learn that besides berating Wesley that his father also abused (either verbally and/or physically) his mother (or otherwise mistreated women) and Wesley couldn’t stop him. I suspect Wesley is a little afraid of becoming his father and might have felt that this _primal-self_ did just that–showed that his father **is** inside him somewhere. > [@](#): > > _MrVisible posted:_ > I wish Fred had let Wesley know that, even though he had those feelings inside him, the fact that he always treated women with respect spoke volumes about his strength of character. We’ve all got demons; what determines our humanity is how well we keep them caged. Bravo! I love the way you expressed that idea. **On Billy’s power…** I think Joss left this a little up to interpretation. IMHO I don’t think Billy imparts a demon–it’s more like an infection that breaks down inhibitations–he feeds the anger and insecurity in men, releases that part of them that usually controls and/or represses those feelings, and allows those feelings and to be magnified and consume them pushing them into violence response. Also, I don’t believe we’re meant to think it’s necessarily that man’s particular misogynist thoughts or feelings (whomever is touched) but that of mankind – a sins of the father kind of lineage. Anyone else get the impression that Billy also formed some psychic connection with the men that allowed him to feel and/or see what they did? I mean, a lot of his instigations of violence were in passing – he wasn’t on the scene when they happened. Do you think he took his perverse joy in knowing they were going to happen? Or could he actually on some level experience them and pull enjoyment (and perhaps power – like a demon that _feeds_ on the violent acts) directly from both his victim and his victim’s victim? **On Angel unaffected…and lack of “anger”…** I was thinking back to the first season when Angel gets “infected” by the demon who uses the talking-stick (or whatever they called it) during sensitivity training. It made me wonder why the soul part of Angel wasn’t affected by Billy, but I did think perhaps the demon inside him was strong enough to fight it—if guided by his soulful conscious to do so. Also, I think Angel has and uses anger (maybe even hate) when he needs it (to fight and protect) or even when he doesn’t (um, the whole Lindsey plotline ring a bell?). I think in part that Angel has had some time to learn to deal with his anger since his epiphany and to control it—maybe more so than other men who spend their time denying and repressing anger rather than dealing with it and being rid of it instead of letting it stew and consume. **On Lilah, not Cordy, killing Billy…** I got the impression that Billy was only part demon from Wesley’s analysis of his blood. Joss seems to make a point of not having _our heros_ kill humans, even partial ones, whenever possible. Just a thought! ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2001, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/65 "2001-10-31T15:50:34Z")
I’m not certain that Billy is out of the picture. Nephew of a powerful Senator with W&H connections? Oh, suuuure. He’ll stay dead. That, or he’s not the only one. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/66 "2001-11-07T21:35:07Z")
Was anyone else surprised that Lorne seems to have snapped out of his funk so quickly? ---
**Author:** ![Edwardina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Edwardina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edwardina)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/67 "2001-11-07T22:07:52Z")
And the Angel/Cordy crush gains momentum . . . ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/68 "2001-11-07T22:20:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*Was anyone else surprised that Lorne seems to have snapped out of his funk so quickly? \*\* Lorne said it’d been weeks, and he seemed to be just starting the repairs. I could have been just as happy with that ep without the butt cleveage. ---
**Author:** ![cmburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@cmburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmburns)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/69 "2001-11-07T22:35:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Natural-J-Bankie \* > \*\*One thing I want to know, when are they going to bring back that Detective, Kate? I thought she had a lot of potential as a permanent cast member, better than Fred at least. \*\* Elisabeth Rohm joined “Law and Order”, replacing Angie Harmon. It’s possible she could work two series at the same time, but as a guess I’d say she’s not going to be on Angel much. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/70 "2001-11-07T23:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Lorne said it’d been weeks, and he seemed to be just starting the repairs. We saw Lorne two weeks ago when we met Fred’s parents and he was bitter and nasty. This week he’s smiles and sunshine. I don’t think that much time has passed between the two episodes. I thought we would see him bitter and nasty for a while longer. Instead he seems to have pretty much forgiven Gunn and moved on. Nice seeing the Ghastly Trio again, though (“Mmmmm…Angel”). ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/71 "2001-11-20T05:57:24Z")
11/19/01 SPOILERS So was anyone surprised that Darla ended up dusted? I figured, when they said last ep that the fetus couldn’t be harmed, that dusting Darla was going to be the only way to get it out of her. Wasn’t expecting her to dust herself, though. I thought Holtz would do it. Speaking of Holtz, they screwed up continuity with his daughter by showing the bite mark on her neck. It was established on Buffy that the wound disappears as soon as the vampire turns. Cool watching the kiddie burn, though. The other possibility I thought of with the baby was that somehow it would die and suffuse Darla with its soul. Then Darla would become some sort of messiah or something. Oh well, dust or messiah, it’s all the same I guess. The “you can chuck bombs into Caritas from outside” thing seems like a huge problem (if Lorne rebuilds again, that is). Seems kind of silly to have an anti-violence spell that doesn’t really stop violence. Liked watching the gang smack each other around to test the spell, though. So what’s Holtz up to, d’ya think? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/72 "2001-11-20T06:22:53Z")
While I was watching tonight, I had an interesting thought. Ask any father what the happiest moment in his life was, and it’s always holding his child for the first time. Think it might have been a bad idea to let Angel witness the birth? “I’m a dad! And now I’m going to kill you all!” Luckily, what with all the fear and death and guilt going on, I guess he was too distracted to really enjoy the process. BTW, Holtz is one of the best bads yet, on Angel _or_ Buffy. Ooo, he is so damn cool. I’m absolutely stealing that character concept for one of my RPGs. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/73 "2001-11-20T06:34:04Z")
I found that burning kid scene to be pretty disturbing. Angelus is probably one of the cruelest characters ever to appear on television. Joss is one sick bastard just to think up all that stuff. That said, good ep! Yay, no more Darla! (Unless she gets resurrected from the dust _again_, ugh.) Also, Angel/Cordy makes me ill. What a terrible, terrible, horrible idea. Ew. Wrong in so many ways. I’d rather see Cordy with Gunn, that would be cute. ---
**Author:** ![VeraGemini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9bcb4/32.png) [@VeraGemini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VeraGemini)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/74 "2001-11-20T11:57:14Z")
To quote a friend of mine, that’s one hell of a way to give birth. I liked Darla, so I’m not terribly thrilled with the ending, but I suppose it makes sense… the redemption theme of the show and all. I foresee Holtz kidnapping the baby, and using that demon’s time-warping ability to raise it as a fanatical vampire hunter. That would solve the problem of having a small baby around, and add a heaping dose of angst. I could be completely wrong, however. 😃 All in all, I didn’t care for the episode. Too much gratuitous “We have souls” angsting, and as I said, I like Darla. I did like the parts where Wesley was telling her how to breathe, Fred and Cordy slapping poor Gunn to test Caritas’s new “security” system, and Holtz’s daughter. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/75 "2001-11-20T15:37:26Z")
I missed the first half hour… anybody want to fill me in? ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/76 "2001-11-20T15:40:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyla \* > \*\*That said, good ep! Yay, no more Darla! (Unless she gets resurrected from the dust _again_, ugh.) Also, Angel/Cordy makes me ill. What a terrible, terrible, horrible idea. Ew. Wrong in so many ways. I’d rather see Cordy with Gunn, that would be cute. \*\* Amen, Kyla! Darla The Annoying And Baby-Voiced is Dead! Dead! Haahahahahahaha!!! Maniacal laughter! Celebrations! Please, please, please, please do not resurrect her, Joss, I beg you. Please!?! I really liked your musical, by the way. And have you lost weight? Yeah, so please don’t resurrect this character! A Cordy and Angel romance would only be cool if they were still crossing over with Buffy. Can you see THAT conversation? “Cordelia? (SLAP!) Cordelia CHASE? (KAPOW!) Cordy? (BLAM!) The same Cordy that I went to high school with? (CRASH!)” Although I have to say that Cordy has grown quite a bit as a person, and I suppose a romance with Angel would be an acknowledgement of that growth. And the comparisons to Buffy and Darla would be interesting and painful for all the characters, I think. How do you be with someone whose very soul depends on not loving you as much as he loved his ex-girlfriends? I think Gunn needs some action. I think Gunn needs some dialogue. What happened to Wesley’s girlfriend? I haven’t been watching Angel consistently this season. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/77 "2001-11-20T17:37:40Z")
I don’t think there’s a romance brewing between Angel and Corcelia. I think they’ve just become dear friends and I think they both realize that any romantic entanglement would be really stupid. Or maybe they’ll pull a “Cordy and Wes” and kiss a couple of times and realize just how wrong it is. It does look like Gunn and Fred are going to hook up. If that happens I wonder what the repercussions would be for Gunn with his old crew. They already aren’t the happiest with him, and to date a white woman on top of that? Wesley and whats-er-name, the sorcerer’s daughter, broke up last season sometime. I don’t recall why exactly, but the reasoning struck me at the time as utterly lame. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/78 "2001-11-20T19:27:39Z")
I thought the episode started slow and built up to a killer (literally!) ending. There was definitely too much angsty soul-talk, and Darla being in labor, though perhaps somewhat realistic, took up far too much of the episode. _I’m nice! I’m attacking the group! I’m nice again! I’m evil! No wait, I’m nice! I’m sleeping! I’m awake!_. I was just ready for her to pop out the kid already. I never liked Darla-- can’t stand the way she talks, frankly, and the way she’d turn up to toy with Angel at odd intervals was annoying. I’m impressed and VERY glad that Darla dusted herself. A romance between Angel and Cordy would be weird. I think she and Gunn would be great together, but with Angel… too incestuous, almost. One of the things that I’ve liked about both _Buffy_ and _Angel_ is that the shows have treated the idea of “true love” seriously but not mawkishly. Breakups have been painful and awkward, and no one has moved on cavalierly, either. At some point I probably will like to see Angel get into another romance, but I really like that he’s sort of still tied to Buffy, without the possibility of moving on in a meaningful way (yet). ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/79 "2001-11-20T19:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\* > > Wesley and whats-er-name, the sorcerer’s daughter…\*\* Virginia. That’s all I know about that. I would like Wesley and Fred together. There’s enough angst on his side ('specially after “Billy”) to make it interesting. ---
**Author:** ![lolagranola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea5d25/32.png) [@lolagranola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lolagranola)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089/80 "2001-11-20T19:49:09Z")
Virginia breaks up with Wesley in [Reprise](http://www.CityofAngel.com/episodes/index.html). I think the link takes you to the index of episode summaries, but it’s in season two and has a detailed summary if you’d like to catch up on the episode. I would like to see Angel and Cordelia get together. He needs someone to help him lighten up, and I also think that **magdalene** has a good point about their relationship being very interesting, since Angel really couldn’t love her as much as he loved Buffy. **Spoilers from Lullaby** I was quite surprised when Darla dusted herself. I thought it was a great way for her character to leave. Really, it was probably her best moment. But what are they going to do with a baby around? This isn’t “Three Demon Hunters, One Soul-ful Vampire and a Baby”. I mean, I liked watching Angel finally become a father - something he never thought he could do - but I just don’t know where they’re going to go from here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angels-got-his-own-show-he-deserves-his-own-thread/89089.md?page=5)