Well, I’ll leave you to your opinion and I’ll go with what’s been evident for some time. And I say this as a believer.
A friend from high school is a (fairly newly) ordained Episcopal priest, and he says something similar. He put it as a status update on Facebook, because so many of his congregation were asking him questions.
While this is clearly not something to the Episcopal Church’s benefit, it’s also not a major setback to our place in the Anglican Communion - so we haven’t been “suspended” from the Anglican Communion as some headlines have read.
He also mentioned that this was a result of doing the right thing, but that did not justify claiming cultural superiority or saying nasty things.
But, most interestingly, he shared this link, which states unequivocably (bolding mine):
So it seems all they actually can do is voice their disapproval and ask them not to claim that they represent the Anglican Church in any inter-faith meetings.
(And yes, it’s really weird for this non-Episcopalian seeing them call themselves “primates.” Not even capitalized or anything.)
My personal religious beliefs have nothing to do with this, I’m just arguing against simplistically smug triumphalist narratives which have proclaimed the imminent death of orthodox Christianity since the mid-18th Century. As I said, just ask the good citizens of Moscow if Russia to-day is more or less secular than it was in 1965.
And I’m just going with history and experience over smug puerility. Longevity has a way of altering one’s most zealous, inalterable beliefs. Even, say, changing hardcore political stances from earlier to later years.
The Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans and Baptists all have multiple denominations, so it’s not unprecedented.
What ever happened to Polycarp? He was the board’s resident expert in all things Episcopalian.
Well, you can’t deny that they are.
Wherever you find four Episcopalians, you’ll find a fifth.
Yet I’m the only referring to statistics and historical facts, not just assuming one’s personal experience is applicable to all.
Sadly, Poly passed away quite a while ago. At least 5 years ago, probably before that, actually. My memory’s not sharp on that.
ETA: I was wrong. It was only in 2013.
That’s a shame. I remember him as one of the more erudite posters on the board.
You both may be right. The evangelical tradition grew out of the Pietist movement of the 16th century and the Puritan movement of the 17th. But the churches that came out of those traditions - various Congregational denominations - have settled down into the mainstream of American religion. Likewise the Wesleyan movement, which became in this country the United Methodist Church, pretty much the definition of “mainstream American Protestantism”. Granted, there are still independent Methodist, Holiness, and Wesleyan churches around, but they’re fairly small entities. The Southern Baptists are still conservative and evangelical, but as Qin Shi Huangdi noted, their numbers are falling.
The big evangelical churches that are seeing growth these days only date from the late 19th and early 20th centuries; the megachurches that are organized around a charismatic pastor (Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, T.D. Jakes) and preach the prosperity gospel are even younger. faithfool’s right; if history’s any guide, those that survive will probably drift closer to the mainstream. A church that’s 100-odd years old is still a relatively young one.
Actually the confessional Calvinist denominations (such as Presbyterian Church in America) have seen healthy growth. And while the Southern Baptists have declined somewhat in the past decade, this was only after heavy growth throughout the latter half of the 20th Century while the mainline denominations started declining from midcentury.
Keep in mind that many nondenominational churches are really old-school theology in a shinier package-the more orthodox nondenominational evangelical churches tend to have heavy Baptist and/or Calvinist tendencies. Besides the Pentecoastal churches (whose growth also has slowed recently) and possibly the SDA, I’m not sure what other big evangelical churches you are referring to. The prosperity gospelers are but an ephemeral phenomenon-their pseudo-Christian heresies will disappear with their deaths or under the TRUMP administration.
Which is why I stated my opinion. As one ages, they find there is much more to life that staid facts and statistics. My opinion wasn’t proffered to say the statistics or facts weren’t born out, it was to share what my experience had been, all from my little area of the world within my lifetime. Nothing more or less. I had no idea that my opinion would somehow turn into this bit of unnecessary back and forth. Of which I’m now no longer interested because this sort of tedium bores the hell out of me. Sorry.
And thank you, SMV, that was a much more eloquent way to express my point of view.
When I opened the thread I assumed the “Anglican Communion” was just a US splinter group or something. I thought it was called the Church of England everywhere but here. Boy, is my face red. But good for the Episcopalians for giving the AC the finger right back.
Okay, but it seems to me that you’re implicitly assuming that it’s the theology alone that attracts people to the evangelical churches. This is just a SWAG, but I suspect it’s the shiny package. Bored with staid old hymns and soporific sermons? Come on over to First Church of Glitz! We have electric guitars! Hymns that sound like power ballads! Professional sound systems and broadcast facilities! Zumba classes!
Again, this is just my guess, but it seems to me that part of the appeal of the nondenominational evangelical churches is that they’re not mainstream. And if they do in time become mainstream, another family of churches will spring up in reaction to them.
That’s not by any means to say that that’s the only thing that draws people to evangelical churches, or that there aren’t thoughtful, intelligent evangelicals who do think about theology. Nor that all evangelicals are just emotional thrill-seekers. But there’s an emotionalistic element present in megachurches that is more pronounced than in, say, a PCA congregation.
I do agree with you that there is no inevitable arc to nonbelief; religiosity is too deeply ingrained in human nature.
Cite? My very liberal Presbyterian congregation supports missionaries, as well as charity, and we add in a burst of work in a variety of places (currently Nicaragua is a focus). We have retired missionaries in our congregation as well.
The Episcopalian church might split, the same way the Presbyterians have. We split for the Civil War, and it took until the 1980s to get back together. We are losing some due to the gay decision, but our congregation is growing.
You were claiming facts and statistics just a few posts ago. Heck, you did so just in the post that Qin is responding to. And saying your are bored of a topic is a pretty normal way to avoid admitting that you can’t argue with what was said.
You did not just share your experience. You predicted that Christianity is dying out. And you cited the overall declining numbers. Qin then brought up that some branches were growing, and you said their growth would level out and decline.
All Qin’s argument is is that, historically, we’ve had times where Christianity seemed to be waning, just to have a revival and have it start growing again. It’s way too soon to be predicting the religion’s decline.
Sorry if it seems like I’m quote parsing, but there’s just a lot to respond to in this post, and splitting it up like this made it easier. Trying to tie it together in one response was just frustrating.
This is very true, but I think calling it “glitz” is mischaracterizing it. The validity of this more contemporary style is part of the theology. And it seems you are using “evangelical” to mean “contemporary.”
Not as far as I can tell. Nondenominational churches deny sectarianism, but their theology is mostly mainstream. Here you seem to be using “nondenominational evangelical churches” to mean the megachurches. But even they aren’t really about not being mainstream–they’re just about being comfortable, about going to a church that is about being uplifting and empowering.
Both are under the Evangelical umbrella–except for the prosperity gospel churches, which are arguably a completely different theology. What you’ve described are just the far ends. This diversity heavily limits the ability to make claims based on what Qin has said.
I agree that there’s no inevitable arc. However I would argue there’s no inevitable revival, either. The religiosity could be redirected other ways.
I don’t see the priests at my Episcopal church doing SSMs anytime soon. Mainly because the this church came very close to leaving the Episcopal Church. Newark capitulated and clergy were given the right to refuse to perform a same-sex marriage, with the promise they would incur no penalty, while bishops were given the right to refuse to allow the services to take place in their diocese.
I worship at the cathedral church for my diocese and I’m sure they would do SSM. There are at least three same sex couples I know of that attend here. One verger who recently retired is in one couple, his partner sings in the choir.
But in this city, with two Episcopal churches, there is also a small Anglican church, formed mostly of folks who were dissatisfied with the decisions the ECUSA has made. It says it is a member of “The Traditional Anglican Communion” whatever that is, and uses the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and the 1940 Hymnal. I know of one person in my own congregation that transferred there.
Just as a data point:
My church, in a diocese that has generally been liberal in its approach to gays and lesbians, recently called its second openly gay rector. We have been doing same sex marriage ceremonies for several years–ever since marriage equality was established in this state–and there are a fair number of gay and lesbian couples in the congregation. (We lost one family over this issue when the first openly gay rector was chosen.)
There used to be six “mainline Protestant” churches in our small city’s downtown district. Four of them have closed, merged with other congregations in the suburbs, or downsized dramatically; none of them were particularly gay-friendly. The only two that are left are our Episcopal congregation and a Congregational church with a similar outlook on issues of sexual orientation. Both of them are growing.
As I said, just a data point…
Big T, you had the opportunity to converse with me in the pit and you chose to walk away. The moralizing that you take such deep-seated satisfaction in now has absolutely zero interest to me as I’m not going to even read it. So, I suppose you need to take your finger wagging elsewhere because it’s lost on me. Both Quin and I were doing just fine without your input. Thanks for trying to play, though.