# Angola Beliefs In The Modern World, & The Murder Of Children **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336 "2005-07-13T14:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/1 "2005-07-13T14:35:31Z")
In the UK, 3 people of Angola ethnicity have been convicted of abusing a “possessed” child. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/england/london/4663719.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4663719.stm) Possession & Exorcism are part of Angolan & Congolese culture. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/4596127.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4596127.stm) Children have been beaten, murdered, even sacrificed, in these rituals, & related ones. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/4098172.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4098172.stm) Hundreds of African children are missing in London, under morbid & frightening circumstances. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/4541603.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4541603.stm) > [@](#): > > An orphanage in Luanda, run by Argentine Catholic priests, houses more than 100 children, up to 40% of whom were abused, beaten, cast out from their homes as they were believed to be witches. > > Father Pablo Jose Galvan explained: "What we find with these kind of children is that the very clever, very expert, somehow special, are accused of witchcraft. > > Many families cannot afford to look after children orphaned by war. > > “Usually they are much mistreated. The ones here accused of witchcraft… suffer a lot of violence, they are beaten with machetes.” [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4677969.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4677969.stm) Have we gone too far, in Multiculturalism? How can we educate these immigrants away from this? Does this go on in America? And remember: cultural contact is **always** mutual. What effect will this have on _our_ culture & society? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/2 "2005-07-14T12:38:37Z")
Not **one** response? :eek: :smack: The Third World is beating a path to our doors, and not **one** person here is willing to discuss how our society can cope? I would, at least, have expected a proponent of unlimited multiculturalism to condemn me. Not really a good response, but a least engagement. You disappoint me. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/3 "2005-07-14T13:23:29Z")
As a Witch, I am appalled. ☹ The last thing I want to do is dump on Africa, I’ve always loved Africa, but with women on the run from female genital mutilation and Islamic Shari‘ah punishments, and now this… I say it isn’t African culture itself that’s to blame for these ghastly crimes, it’s what happens when humans are put under more stress than they can bear. The ugly side of human nature comes out. It could happen here too, if our country had been torn by war, endemic poverty, hunger, disruption, and exploitation for so many years. Actually, this is nothing compared to the massive, systemic Witch persecutions carried out a few centuries ago in Europe, the home of our glorious vaunted Western culture. I think what we’re seeing in Angola is a culture in crisis, and this is one of the symptoms. Too much war tearing up the fabric of society. Desperate people lash out at easy targets. As for how to remedy it in England, don’t existing child protection laws cover the situation? Isn’t it a simply a matter of enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/4 "2005-07-14T13:26:01Z")
According to one of the BBC articles, a virulent strain of Christianity is partly to blame. Where have we seen this before? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/5 "2005-07-14T13:56:41Z")
I’ve read other articles about Witch hunts in Africa in which Christians have helped shut them down- either “westernized” C’tians showing them to be nonsensical or Pentecostal-style C’tians showing native witchcraft to be powerless. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/6 "2005-07-14T14:22:43Z")
I for one think multiculturalism is BS. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/7 "2005-07-14T14:25:00Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Not **one** response? :eek: :smack: It sounds like that Angela is a real bitch but do you really think she’s responsible for all of these murders and disappearances? > [@FriarTed](#): > > I’ve read other articles about Witch hunts in Africa in which Christians have helped shut them down- either “westernized” C’tians showing them to be nonsensical or Pentecostal-style C’tians showing native witchcraft to be powerless. I find those two approaches very interesting. Do you have any links where I can learn more? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/8 "2005-07-14T19:24:45Z")
Take off your pious blinders, **Ted**. It’s Pentecostal Christians who are behind the persecutions in Angola for alleged witchcraft. Christians are abetting these crimes. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/9 "2005-07-18T14:53:46Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Take off your pious blinders, **Ted**. It’s Pentecostal Christians who are behind the persecutions in Angola for alleged witchcraft. Christians are abetting these crimes. Deal with it. Well, I checked every link in the OP & the last one does indeed document your accusation. I’d say the problem with that Pentecostal C’tian minister in the last article isn’t that he is too Pentecostal or Christian, but that he is NOT enough of either. He’s not practicing Biblical exorcism- he’s sure not casting out any demons, he’s just a flim-flam hoodoo man who may well have a few demons himself. That said, I know even in the U.S. there are charismatic C’tians who get caught up in witch hunting hysteria (the Satanic Panic which hit all the talk & news shows in the 80s is a prime example.) Of course, the worst abuses in that were by overzealous prosecutors & social workers & repressed-memory psychotherapists, some of which may have had religious axes to grind (in fact, that would be an excellent subject to research). Anyway, if educated late 20th-C Westerners can get caught up in it, how much more people who are just coming out of primitive cultures. Incidentally. this is coming from someone who is really wondering if the Biblical teaching of Satan & demons has been accurately understood. I’ve always thought Biblical faith mandated belief in the existence of evil spirits- now I’m wondering if the Bible actually teaches that or if that was a commonly-understood-at-the-time metaphor for sins & delusions which was lost to us over centuries of misinterpretation. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/10 "2005-07-19T07:34:01Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I find those two approaches very interesting. Do you have any links where I can learn more? I’m not sure if this is the article I read a few years back, but it makes the same point. [http://www.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/papers/hayes/witch.html](http://www.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/papers/hayes/witch.html) [http://www.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/papers/hayes/r-steve.html](http://www.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/papers/hayes/r-steve.html) Another link to the first, with some added material [http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/witch1.htm](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/witch1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/11 "2005-07-19T08:46:29Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > . . . he’s just a flim-flam hoodoo man who may well have a few demons himself. Errmm . . . you’re using the word “demons” here in a metaphorical, pop-psychology sense, right? ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/12 "2005-07-19T09:10:39Z")
I’ve been following the story here. It’s quite upsetting. A radio interview with Victoria Climbie’s aunt was revealing. She said “ndoki” (witchcraft) was real. It could make you barren. It could stop you getting a job. It could _give you problems with the immigration authorities_. The mindset was clear - the trials and tribulations of everyday life are not bad fortune, but witchcraft. Health problems? Ndoki! Rejected for a job? Ndoki! Find those responsible and punish them. The pastor will know who it is. Not that Victoria had been practising witchcraft on those around her. She was accused of _flying to Africa at night and carrying out witchcraft there_. Apparently convicted out of her own mouth. I do wonder what triggered this accusation. Sleepwalking? A child’s fantasy? But once she was accused, confessions could be forced out of her. A visit to Angola was highly revealing as to the roots of these beliefs. Pure, crushing, hopeless poverty. The belief in Ndoki basically legitimises infanticide for a people too poor to take care of all their children, and obviates the grief and shame of this. People in this situation are going to find it hard to accept that they are murdering their children rather than punishing the evil sources of all their woes, and the pastors and spiritual leaders aren’t going to give up their power easily. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/13 "2005-07-19T09:16:16Z")
And I see that **Bosda’s** last link covers the Angola report in detail. That’ll teach me. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/14 "2005-07-19T11:08:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Errmm . . . you’re using the word “demons” here in a metaphorical, pop-psychology sense, right? If demonic spirits don’t exist, right. If demonic spirits do exist, maybe not. I will say that it’s obvious from the article that he is practicing witchcraft just as much as those he accuses. Whether or not it has any effect is up for grabs. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/angola-beliefs-in-the-modern-world-the-murder-of-children/312336/15 "2005-07-20T22:51:54Z")
**Ted** , I grumped at you and you responded like a gentleman. Style point goes to you on this round. In fairness, the Catholics who run the hospital that cares for the victims are contributing their share of help according to their understanding of Christianity and deserve credit. Witch persecutions are a sore point with me, obviously, being a Witch myself. But remember the innocent people killed in Salem were Christians. Preventing anti-Witch hysteria is in everyone’s interests. My Navajo friend told me about 12 years ago that everyone on the res was afraid of one another because of witchcraft hysteria. Such social tension is not caused by the Witches themselves, but by the Witch-haters.