# Animal Cruelty on the SDMB, a tale of lies and attempted murder
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 5, 2001, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151 "2001-02-05T02:36:10Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/1 "2001-02-05T02:36:10Z")
Why does this thread exist? It exists for three reasons.
[ul]
[li]1, is to refute much of the misinformation spread in the “[Should aggressive dog breeds be banned](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57725&pagenumber=3)” thread in GD.[/li]
[li]2, Some of the attitudes expressed in that thread mentally and physically disgusted me. The proper place to deal with ‘Possum fucking worm brained sons of bitches like that is the pit.[/li]
[li]3, Many people don’t read GD with great frequency, they asked me to place this here so it will be more noticeable, and so that they too can give these lovely people the attention they deserve.[/li][/ul]
I realize that the thread started out on aggressive dogs in general, and the dogs in the story are Canary Island Mastiffs, but it turned quickly to Pit Bulls. So I’ll be talking about Pit Bulls mostly, with some other info thrown in.
In regards to the thread, there’s one word that really sums up my feelings. WOW! What a fucking thread. I must say I’m shocked, dismayed, and in many cases sickened by some of the opinions placed in it. The way some people manipulated statistics and tried to play off our emotions would make any Neo-Nazi proud. I hope those of you calling for a dog holocaust are proud of yourselves. How shall we decide who dies? The one-drop rule prided by racialists around the globe? That’d be a fancy way to do it.
It actually took awhile to wade through the crap sprouted in this thread. I was in such disbelief most of the time that seemingly intelligent people could think such utter shit, that I kept having to take breaks. I’m going to be alternately responding to certain people, and also generally refuting a lot of the misinformation spread in this thread
First off, **Badtz Mardu** and **evilbeth** , great posts, you’ve summed up many of my positions quite well. **Badtz** did a great job debunking the study “showing”, as **grienspace** put it, that Pit Bulls have a 1 in 16 chance of sending you to the hospital.
> [@](#):
>
> Avumede (who I’m not lumping in with some of the nut bags of flea shit who responded to the thread) wrote
> \*\* Would it be any great loss to humanity of Pit Bulls and other aggressive breeds disappeared from the face of the earth? I realize some dogs fulfill a valid security role, and that’s OK, but many good security dogs aren’t psychotic in the same way that these certain aggressive breeds are.
\*\*
Lets talk about aggression. There are many types of aggression in all dogs. Dog to dog aggression, dog to human aggression, and dog to whatever other animal aggression (be it cat, bird, flounder). No one has ever been stupid enough to claim that dog to cat aggression equals dog to human aggression. I have yet to hear someone claim, “Look at that poodle go after that cat, you’d better be careful, it’s dangerous, it could turn on you next.” Yet people feel no harm in making the ridiculous claim that dog to dog aggression has a link to dog to human aggression. I’ll be honest. Many Pit Bulls have a high level of dog to dog aggression. They were bred for it, Many don’t. If you have a Pit Bull you need to be quite careful around other dogs until it’s been temperament tested. Pit Bulls are also quite low on the Dog to Human aggression scale. It doesn’t come naturally to them. Why? Because as another poster started to point out, a dog that has a high level of human aggression will not do well in dog fights. Since they are largely bred for dog fighting, human aggression was removed from them. They are one of the safer dogs to be around.
According to the American Temperament Test Society, Pitt Bulls score a passing rate of 81.7%, that’s better than golden retrievers, beagles, and countless other dogs. Temperament testing is the only reliable way to find out how your dog will react. If you test your dog, you will know what kind of dog they are, if they are aggressive, mild tempered, dangerous, or safe. Unreliable methods of determining how your dog will react include; news reports, rumors, lies posted to bulletin boards, and misrepresented statistics. A properly raised, trained, tested Pit Bull or any other dog, will **NEVER** be human aggressive. Are there human aggressive breeds? Yes. The Pit Bull is not one of them however. Can it be made human aggressive? yes, but only with **a lot** of work. Even pits that are beaten and abused can frequently be given a loving home, and made into sweet caring dogs. This can’t be said for a lot of breeds.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> And yes, it’s possible to have well controlled and behaved Pit Bulls. But surely as a whole this breed requires careful handling - and that’s too much to ask of dog owners. We can’t require that all dog owners be great owners. Dogs should be safe enough so that even if the owner is fairly neglectful, the dog doesn’t go and kill someone. Life is too precious for that.
\*\*
This is interesting. I would actually say that we should require that all dog owners be great owners regardless of the breed. It’s absolutely inexcusable for an owner to be neglectful if the dog is a Pit Bull, a toy poodle, or a great dane. There isn’t a single breed of dog that doesn’t require careful handling or great care and attention. If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t have a dog at all. Life is too precious for that.
Why would someone own a Pit Bull? Because they are own of the sweetest, friendliest, most adorable, incredibly loyal breeds out there. Who wouldn’t want a dog like that? I would never own a Pit Bull as a guard dog. They aren’t ideally suited for it. They are good as companions for children, as play mates, as someone you can take to the beach for Frisbee, or someone who can help you feel safer in the big city. They’re used for search and rescue and for police work in quite a few areas. Would the police use a god that’s unpredictable, dangerous, and could turn on it’s controllers?
> [@](#):
>
> posted by grins peace
> \*\* Being a German Shephard owner myself(as a kid), and interested in dogs and breeding I had never heard or seen either Pit Bulls or Rotweillers in the sixties, but hearing of the many Pit Bull maulings occuring these days in my home province alone suggests that ferocious dog attacks are now a part of life, and every community can expect a young child to be horribly disfigured, and most likely by a Pit Bull, every several years.
\*\*
Wow. Not a single hard fact or any useful information in this one. Feed the forces of fear, try to panic people, really really good idea. I’m surprised you haven’t heard or seen Pit Bulls until recently. Ever see the little rascals as a kid? Petey was a Pit Bull, Pit Bulls have been popular loving dogs for a long time in the USA. Helen Keller had one, Theodore Roosevelt had one, along with hundreds of thousands of other people. Although, I realize from your post that you are very likely not located in the US. So. I ask you, how many Pit Bull “maulings” (which isn’t a clearly defined word, I wonder what you mean by it. If you could provide a definition I would be most appreciative) have occurred in your home province. I’d like to see that compared to the number of other dog attacks by breed, by mixed breed, vs total populations of dogs, owner habits, and other pertinent data. One problem is that the media frequently misrepresents dog attacks, calling certain dogs Pit Bulls or Pit Bull mixes when they clearly aren’t. “The latest attack story showed a Shepherd-looking mix (thick hairy tail, thick rough fur, long black muzzle) that KRON said was a “Pit Bull”.”
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* This debate just did not exist 40 years ago. Why, because the Pit Bull and Rotwieller were not popular.
\*\*
That’s false. The Pit Bull was indeed popular. The difference was that it was not popular as an attack dog and was not popular among people who have no right owning one. So, because the type of person who likes a dog has changed, we should ban the dog? That makes absolutely no sense. You’re arguing banning a product depending on who finds it popular. How fucking elitist. As **EJSGirl** rightfully pointed out, years ago the problem was a different breed of dog.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* Certainly we do not live in a perfect world, and any solution to the mauling epedemic we are seeing today can not be addressed to perfection
\*\*
Epidemic? Epidemic? You haven’t even given us a clear figure on how many have happened. Now you’re calling it a freaking epidemic? As stupid as I know you to be, you still manage to amaze me every time you open your mouth. You advocate eliminating all dogs who would present a danger to us. Others have already brought it up, but I feel it bears addressing again. You can view statistics that show that black males are more likely to commit violence. Shall we kill all of them? It would certainly appear, from a cursory look at facts and figures to make the US a safer place. And yet only a complete idiot or racist would suggest that. For as it’s stated, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. How is your proposal any different from the one I’ve laid out?
There’s quite a few other misrepresentations in your posts, I’m not sure if you’re deliberately distorting facts to try and turn people against dogs, or if you really believe it, either way I find your writings quite insulting. Claiming that your brother owned a bull terrier and if a boy had been a dog it would be dead, with no evidence WHATSOEVER, is irresponsible. You constantly bring in issues that have nothing to do with the debate in an effort to do exactly what I’m not sure. Confuse your opponents? Side track them? Make everyone think that you have no grasp whatsoever of the subject? Make like a cat and go lick your own ass.
> [@](#):
>
> Spouted by Deskmonkey
> \*\*Well, people are scared of them because they have a history of attacking people. They have been bred for hundreds of years and they’ve become dangerous.
\*\*
History of attacking people? Not very much of one. Other breeds have a much longer history of attacking people. Pit Bulls have been around for the better part of a century, and have been extremely popular, and widespread. Pit Bull attack did not pop up until the 80’s. Do you think that maybe, if a breed has been around for a century, has had no problem with attacking people, and then the dogs start attacking people, with no change in the breed, that the problem might not be them, that it might be something else?
As for being bred for hundreds of years, I must admit I have no FUCKING idea what you’re talking about there. What breed hasn’t been bred for hundreds if not thousands of years. I can only think of a few, one of them being the Pit Bull. Become dangerous? YOU mean there is the possibility for them to be dangerous, just as that possibility exists with any other large breed.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* But it still doesn’t make me feel any better when I hear stories about kids being chased up a tree by a pack of vicious house pets, and when one of them climbs down to see if the coast is clear, gets his scalp torn from his head in front of his little brother. But I guess it’s worth it so you can cuddle up with the dog of your choice.
\*\*
Where did you hear this story? WTF, did the person then tell you the story about AIDS being caused by people anally raping monkeys after this one. Cause it sounds like it has about as much truth in it. Your statement, although stupid, had the singular honor of being worthless as well.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* These dogs do not exist in nature. They are engineered. Pure breds in general are so inbred that they’re prone to all sorts of weirdness. Your best bet is a good old-fashioned mutt if you want a real pal
\*\*
And again, like others have done I must ask you for some evidence to back this ridiculous assertion up. You can point to individual purebreds, but you can do the same with individual mutts. Most dog bites come from mutts, not pure breeds. In fact it’s mutts known to the victim that do most of the biting, not unknown purebreds. Most people killed by dogs are killed by mutts, not Pit Bulls. or other purebreds. It’s so simple now. We’ll simply outlaw mixed breeds! Your intelligence is very similar to my dog’s nuts, it’s been somehow removed.
At this point I thought of responding to **Adventurious82** ’s comments, but seeing how much verbal diarrhea is dripping out of his ass in the cruelest race thread, and seeing it start to leak into the dog one too, I decided it’d be best to pretend he doesn’t exist.
> [@](#):
>
> Spoke Scylla, normally a sensible fellow
> \*\* For whatever reason, some dogs of this breed are instinctually incapable of releasing their grip in some circumstances. Breeders at kennels use a “breaking bar,” basically a pry bar, to seperate fighting dogs.
\*\*
I have to give you credit for backing off the ridiculous claim about a genetic defect. But then you come back and spew more of the same shit. This is unequivocally **NOT TRUE**. It’s completely false, it has no basis in fact, it’s an urban legend. Got it? good.
What Pit Bulls, along with many other breeds, do have is tenacity and strong jaws. If they don’t want to let go, it can be hard to get them to do so. That’s why they need to be properly trained. Other breeds can experience that problem too. Pit Bulls are completely capable of releasing their grip in all circumstances.
They are no stronger than other dogs, no more powerful than other dogs. It’s a FUCKING LIE. From Dr. Brisbin of the University of Georgia “The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of Pit Bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of ‘locking mechanism’ unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."
> [@](#):
>
> From grienspace
> \*\* I may be incorrect, but my perception is that many of the Pit Bull owners involved in these trajedies are decent people who by virtue of the friendliness of their pet are lulled into complacency
\*\*
You are incorrect. You have presented absolutely no evidence of this. Your observations are as useful as a beer mug full of frog fuck. You’re just spouting off nonsense. Human Aggression, as I pointed out earlier, has actually been bred out of Pit Bulls. According to the National Canine Temperament Testing Association, Pit Bulls are one of the safest dogs out there, they scored 4th overall in terms of temperament. But, don’t let facts get in the way of your lies and innuendo. If a dog attacks it’s the owners fault for not training the dog properly and the owner should be completely liable. If I buy a car with no idea of how to use it, it’s my own fucking fault if I get in an accident and kill 4 young schoolchildren.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* To all those who suggest that banning one breed will lead to a never ending banning problem must realize that there never was a serious problem until the Pit Bull.
\*\*
Again, you’re talking out your skanky fucking brown asshole. Recently Pit Bulls have accounted for approximately 25% of dog attacks **FROM PURE BREDS** resulting in death, with german shepards a close second. You know what causes the most deaths? mutts. You are, again, spewing out complete shit. This is akin to claiming there was never a serious crime problem in the united states until we ended segregation. Maybe we should bring that back too :rolleyes:
You also mentioned a post in another thread where you vomited more bigotry against Pit Bulls, luckily someone was there to correct you. Does the fact that someone who works at a vet, and deals with Pit Bulls on a regular basis, and has found not one vicious, unpredictable, Pit Bull mean nothing to you?
eh?
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* What do you do when your kid is screaming and your Pit Bull won’t unlock from his face. Is there a technique you should be aware of? This family was so overwrought by the incident, they had no choice but to destroy their other sweet and lovely pet.Once bitten twice shy. It is the nature of Pit Bulls to be unpredictable. Dan Knapp of L.A. Animal Services says they were bred not to warn
\*\*
Oh goody. More bullshit. Nothing in the article indicated the dog wouldn’t unlock. You’re making shit up again. You are a fucking lousy human being. I do hope you’re neutered so you can’t breed. Wouldn’t want your genetic stupidity spreading to another generation. The article says nothing about the family being overwrought. They accepted the advice of animal control to murder the second animal. It is not in the nature of Pit Bulls to be unpredictable. And Dan Knapp, like you, is talking out his ass. From a Pit Bull rescue FAQ… Pit Bulls do not attack without warning… “In fact, no breed of dog does. Dog aggression is nearly always preceded by some kind of warning, and there is always a reason behind the attack. However, many inexperienced owners do not recognize the dog’s behavior as aggression, or refuse to acknowledge it as a warning sign. The only exception I can think of is Springer Rage, a rare and controversial neurological condition that manifests itself as a spontaneous attack, followed by confusion, and then a return to normal behavior. Pit Bulls are NOT prone to this condition.”
So please cut with the bullshit. You’re starting to stink up ATMB with all the crap.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*… completely unpreventable or forseeable. …Only Pit Bulls have this problem. It is a genetic nightmare. …to read and hear some of you making excuses for the breed and ignoring the statistics and the anecdotal evidence for the dormancy of terror that can exist within every Pit Bull makes me want to scream
\*\*
No real comment should be required from me on this one. More lies, with no statistics. A complete reliance on, not just anecdotal evidence, but complete hearsay, and a steadfast refusal to even consider logic or simple reasoning that comes naturally to every child. While the other side presents facts, figures, evidence, etc, you ignore them. Your dumbfuckery makes me want to throttle you.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* At this point, after 680 views of which many are repeats, three people have come forward to testify to a savage maiming attack by a Pit Bull on a member of their immediate family. In each case the Pit Bull was well known, friendly and raised by responsible loving owners.
\*\*
Hi. My name is **grins-peace** , I am a fucking idiot, and I lie, do you like hearing lies? Cause I sure do like to tell them.
_ **Case One** _: **Wildest Bill** , made no mention how well his wife actually knew the dog (simply she had known it since it was a puppy), did not mention if it was friendly or not, made no mention of the owners. We’re taking his word that it was indeed a Pit Bull.
_ **Case Two** _: **justwannaknow** , made no mention that the dog was well known, made no mention that it was friendly, mad no mention that it was raised by responsible loving owners, and there was one other thing. What was it? Oh yeah. **IT WASN’T A FUCKING PIT BULL YOU MORON**.
_ **Case Three** _: **Holly** , the Pit Bull was indeed well known, it was friendly to adults, however we do not know if it was raised with kids, if the owners were responsible, or if they properly trained the dog. I also highly doubt her statement that the dog gave no warning sign, in all likelihood they simply missed what to the dog were obvious warning signs. This comes again, under the heading, don’t let people who are unfamiliar with dogs be around them.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* Now I’ve been reading a lot of sites on Pit Bulls, overwhelmingly defending the breed but providing very little in hard facts.
\*\*
Then you are either incredibly stupid, and don’t know how to do a google search, or you’re lying again. I’ve included some sites at the end that provide hard evidence and statistics on Pit Bulls, it’s the anti-Pit Bull sites that rely on anecdotal evidence and outright lies.
and here are a few random quotes from **griens-peace** that I just had to share.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* [in response to finding out a Pit Bull didn’t attack **justwannaknow** ’s daughter] I did think your daughter was fairly lucky to get away with minor scars. Now I know why.
>
> Do you think that any immediate family member of Straight Dopers have suffered gunshot wounds? I think ya-all can get the drift of my meaning.
>
> … those who are concerned about the Pit Bull menace would very much like to read your response.\*\*
Do you ever pay attention to the issues in a debate, or do you just enjoy coming into a random threads and showing everyone how far you can stick your head up your own ass. At one point you asked why you don’t let up. I can only assume you’ve suffered large amounts of brain damage from that tricky maneuver, nothing else can explain it.
> [@](#):
>
> our second favorite shit pickle of love, Deskmonkey, wrote
> \*\* And FWIW, I don’t think these dogs should be exterminated, I think they should be sterilized and not allowed to breed any more. I’m an animal lover to the core, but if an animal is dangerous to humans or other animals, I’m going to have to side with the prey on this one.
\*\*
So, since it’s been shown that Pit Bulls are not human aggressive, we should let them be, we can go after the more aggressive breeds, like small yappy dogs.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* Are you sure your rose-colored glasses aren’t just covered in blood?
\*\*
What the fuck is up with this comment you stupid fuck? Are you sure that you aren’t a genetic douche bag who happened to inherit the worst aspects from the (and I’m being generous here) apes you call relatives?
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* But that wasn’t really my point anyway, it was one of those stray thoughts that makes it’s way into otherwise flawless reasoning. J
\*\*
Ah yes, the flawless reasoning. Want to hear my flawless reasoning? You’re a dick.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> The article tries it’s best to be fair to aggressive dogs, but this paragraph says it all to me. Pomeranians aren’t responsible for 57 tragic and most assuredly painful deaths.
\*\*
No it didn’t. The report was specifically misleading. It did not mention the far larger number of people killed by mixed breeds. It lies, just like **griens-peace** , and tries to play off people’s emotions, just like you.
> [@](#):
>
> From Curiousgeorge
> \*\* About once a month in the U.S. someone is killed by a dog attack. Forty percent of the time that dog is a Pit Bull.
\*\*
One, that figure was taken from 1989. It is absolutely false today. Two, I doubt that figure was correct when it was reported. We’ve already seen what the anti-Pit Bull forces are capable of. KRON routinely reports Pit Bull attacks, very very often the dog they show is not a Pit Bull but is some kind of Shepard mix.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* Mrvisible, the fact is Pit Bulls kill and maul innocent people more than any other dog breed
\*\*
Again utter and complete bullshit. Innocent? The dog death figures do not say who’s at fault in the death. And where’s the figures on maulings. No one has yet provided them, once again, like so many others in that thread of SHIT, you’re talking out your ass.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* Do you have legislation in mind that would make Pit Bulls as harmless as normal dogs? I haven’t heard of any.
\*\*
Since they are less aggressive and safer than most other dogs, the only legislation that would have any effect is to prevent idiots from owning dogs.
That’s about all I have to say on the matter. There were some other people in that thread who probably deserve a good solid mauling by a rabid Chihuahua, like **hazel-rah** , but they are mostly beneath contempt.
To sum up.
[ul]
[li]1. Pit Bulls are no different from other dogs except for two facts. They are more dog aggressive, and less human aggressive.[/li][li]2. Pit Bulls do not attack without warning[/li][li]3. Most deaths are caused by mutts[/li][li]4. Most bites and other less serious injuries are caused by mutts and other dogs[/li][li]5. Pit Bulls have one of the calmest temperaments among dogs, earning 4th places overall in one test[/li][li]6. Pit Bulls are ideal family dogs[/li][li]7. any dog can be dangerous if mistreated, mishandled, or mistrained.[/li][/ul]
I’d like to thank some people for inspiration and encouragement regarding this thread,. They are; Mr. Cynical, Reprise, Shayna61, Porcupine, Crunchy Frog, Rasa of course, and everyone else who helped.
---
### Author:  [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/2 "2001-02-05T02:57:04Z")
**Jadis** kindly pointed out to me that although I pormised links, I did not provide them.
Here are some good ones where I gleaned much information.
[Pit Bull Search and Rescue](http://www.pitbullpress.com/k9to5.pg.1.html)
[Figures on Dog Bites from the CDC](http://www.familyanimal.com/excerpts/excerpts.htm)
[Austin Pit Bull FAQ](http://austinpitbullrescue.homestead.com/questions.html)
[BAD RAP](http://www.badrap.org/)
---
### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/3 "2001-02-05T02:57:52Z")
I thought the problem was people trainging Pit Bulls to be fighters, and deliberately mistreating them to turn the dogs nasty.
Could that be the case?
(Guin, who has a Westie she adores…-anyone Westie fans out there?)
---
### Author:  [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/4 "2001-02-05T03:22:27Z")
Excellent post, **oldscratch**. I’ve never bought into the anti-Pit Bull hysteria, and your point about the different types of aggression was a new concept for me. I do wonder if you went a bit far with this statement:
> [@](#):
>
> Would the police use a **god** that’s unpredictable, dangerous, and could turn on it’s controllers?
I mean, they are just dogs afterall.
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/5 "2001-02-05T03:50:31Z")
I’m with you oldie. When I first started hearing the media frenzy in the 1980’s about Pit Bulls, my hair started to stand on end. Why? Because I could clearly recognize the **same, exact sort of slanted demonization** that had been troubling me about the media portrayal of “assault rifles”, “bullet bikes”, “lawn darts”, and “killer ATVs”. In fact, as a snide joke, I started referring to the media’s hysteria over Pit Bulls as being about the “Assault Dogs”.
This phenomenon really swept KC pretty well, as city after city held meetings to ban the “Assault Dogs”. Remember another common media term from the 1980’s, “The Primary Tool of the Drug Dealer”? And how this was applied to all sorts of guns, knives, cell phones, pagers, cars, cans of cleaning fluid, etc? I almost kicked my TV when I saw a local Barney Fife proclaim that the Pit Bull was, indeed, the “Primary Tool of the Drug Dealer.” I guess for that week - there is no accounting for the fickle tastes of the “Drug Dealer”, after all. :rolleyes:
I just fear each, coming media hyseteria that mobilizes the Soccer Moms of Amerika to run to their polls and ban something else…goddess only knows what it will be next time. I guess my bet is on…shudder…those new scooters every kid here has.
---
### Author:  [@kiffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiffa)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/6 "2001-02-05T03:51:22Z")
Dog heaven to be god.
I had heard from somewhere that one reason for the growing debate on the pit bull’s bad reputation is that they are being purchased by inexperienced dog owners who don’t know how to train a dog, do not show affection and maintain the notion of who’s boss [dogs live by the pack’s hierarchy, right] and, dumb owners who glorify in having aggressive, “manly” dogs… without being able to handle them.
Dumb with untrained-aggression-on-a-leash is a bad combination.
---
### Author:  [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/7 "2001-02-05T04:18:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> They are no stronger than other dogs, no more powerful than other dogs. It’s a FUCKING LIE.
I seriously doubt that statement. Think about it.
---
### Author:  [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/8 "2001-02-05T04:34:53Z")
**Krispy** here’s a link [http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqfaq.html#q1](http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqfaq.html#q1)
The unique characteristic of APBT is gameness, not jaw strength. I would think that any dog that’s bigger than an APBT has stronger jaws.
---
### Author:  [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/9 "2001-02-05T04:49:22Z")
Kiffa has pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Over the years a number of breeds of dog have been adopted as symbols of “machismo” - a few that spring to mind are German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Dobermann, and Pit Bull.
I have owned and shown 3 of those breeds, along with a number of other large utility dogs, and I can assure you that well bred, well socialised dogs of these breeds do not attack humans, other dogs or other animals without extreme provocation.
Personally, I would like to see people wishing to own large utility dogs complete a mandatory handler’s course. Unfortunately, many people buy these dogs with little understanding of how to establish dominance during puppyhood and compound the problem by not training and socialising their dogs. That unsocialised, “naughty” puppy may be cute, but one day it’s going to be an unsocialised, untrained 120 pound DOG.
Responsible breeders of large dogs tend not to let them go at an early age, vet potential owners, have pups showing signs of temperamental defects put down, and will usually buy back a dog they have sold if at any time the owner no longer wants it (this last is primarily to maintain the integrity of the bloodline).
Responsible owners take the time to socialise and train their dogs, and take action if their dog is showing indications of being temperamentally unstable.
Owners who brag that their dog will fight/kill dogs or other animals are NOT responsible dog owners. Nor are owners who fight their dogs.
Perhaps we should look towards how we can eradicate irresponsible dog owners and back yard breeders before we talk about banning breeds - because I will guarantee that in a few years time it will be some yet another breed which is trendy and people will be calling for the banning of that breed.
---
### Author:  [@AquaPura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AquaPura)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/10 "2001-02-05T05:13:04Z")
Holy Chicken in a Biscuit oldscratch, remind me never ever to get on your bad side.
I agree with you all the way, I have heard so many reports of so called “vicous dogs” that were often provoked by horrible nasty children hitting the dogs with sticks or rocks. Parents don’t control their children even when it is obvious that they should for their own safety. Then again, there are some parents that don’t deserve to have children because they don’t teach their children right from wrong. Whih leads me to my second point, some people don’t deserve to have dogs, cats, or any kind of pet, even fish. I have seen angry and scared dogs, dogs that have been abused so that all they know is fear. That is not how you take care of an animal, even if you train the dog as a guard dog, you do not teach it to fear, the dog has loyalty, and that is what you show your dog. I hate every time I see on the news that some dog was put down due to the way it was treated. It disgusts me that people cannot have the brains enough to treat an animal right.
_steps down off soapbox_
I am proud to share my home with three wonderful dogs. Tiger, a purebred English Springer Spaniel, who loves to swim in the pool. Cindy, a lovely mystery airedale mix from the local humane society. And last but not least Kekei, a shorthair sheperd mix from the Maui humane society. Yep that is right Maui Hawaii. And if anyone would like to hear the neat story how a Wisconsin family gets a dog from Hawaii, please ask, or I won’t waste the board space.
---
### Author:  [@Cyndar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyndar)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/11 "2001-02-05T05:37:48Z")
I’d like to throw in my support for pit bulls. I love them. They are one of my favorite kinds of dogs.
It is the owners who are at fault for having “bad” dogs. I can’t count how many times I have seen a cute little pit puppy come in to the vet clinic, and the first question out of the owner’s mouth is, “How big do you think he will get?” The same holds true for rotties. These people WANT big, bad dogs. It makes me so sad.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/12 "2001-02-05T05:39:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by oldscratch \*
> Pit Bulls are also quite low on the Dog to Human aggression scale. It doesn’t come naturally to them. Why? Because as another poster started to point out, a dog that has a high level of human aggression will not do well in dog fights. Since they are largely bred for dog fighting, human aggression was removed from them. They are one of the safer dogs to be around.
This is the essence of your argument **oldscratch** and I submit you are speaking through your ass possibly to alleviate that itch you’ve had for so long. Parents, you can go ahead and let your kids play with the neighbour’s pit bull because the human aggression has been bred out of them.What!!!
**You are so full of shit,oldscratch, I wouldn’t even let you lick my ass!**
---
### Author:  [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/13 "2001-02-05T05:50:13Z")
Notice folks. No arguments to back him up, no facts, no statistics, not even any anecdotal evidence or hearsay. Listen to him because he’s… get this… **grienspace**
So, tell us why you’re really bitter, is it cause you’re jealous of their immense penis size? I hear it’s upwards of 3 inches. Must be mighty intimidating to man of your proportions.
---
### Author:  [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/14 "2001-02-05T05:53:21Z")
Excellent post, **oldscratch**.
When I was about 5 years old, I was at my grandmother’s house and playing in her neighbor’s backyard. Their dog was on the back porch where it had a bed and food & water bowls. The dog was laying in its bed and I was crouched down petting it for about 5 or 10 minutes when, out of nowhere, it reached up and bit me in the face. I still sport a small scar under my lip to this day. **It was a mutt, NOT a Pit Bull**. _Should we have all **mutts** eliminated_?
We owned a **dachshund** for 15 years. Very loving and affectionate dog – to us. Mean as hell to other people **if provoked**. My father used to joke that when all the Nazi war criminals died, they were reincarnated as **dachshunds** , that’s how mean they are. (Hey, he can say that, we’re Jewish ;j) Our **dachshund** bit a maid we had because he had taken a golf ball under the bed and was shredding it and she attempted to get him out by poking at him with a damn umbrella. The moron deserved to be bitten. He also bit a girlfriend of mine in the face because she was reaching for some food that apparently he thought was his. (We think he was going for the food and got her by accident.) He even one time chased a terrified **Great Dane** from our front yard, who had gotten loose from her own yard up the street. (Now _that_ was a funny sight!) _Should we therefore have all **dachshunds** eliminated_?
When I was a teenager, some neighbors owned two beautiful **Alaskan Malamutes**. They kept the dogs caged in the backyard during the day. One day a couple of young boys were taunting the dogs by _throwing rocks at them_. Shortly thereafter, one of the boys got too close to one of the dogs (as I recall, he somehow got into the cage, but I don’t know how) and the dog chewed him to shreds, the most damage being done to his penis and testicles. _Should we have all **Malamutes** eliminated_ because a boy was nearly mauled to death by one?
I used to live in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. I lived in a Mexican neighborhood (as opposed to one populated primarily by the American and Canadian population that lived there) and street dogs were extremely common. I adopted a dog that had become blind and unable to be left outside on its own anymore from a neighbor. I was walking him on a leash one day when a **Pit Bull** came around. He studied us for a few minutes and then, sensing the “weakness” in my dog, decided to attack – _the dog_. He never came _near_ me or any of the other people around. A woman with a broom smacked him off my dog and he took off running. _Is this evidence that all **Pit Bulls** are vicious and therefore dangerous to **humans** _? I think not. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I have known 2 or 3 other people who have owned **Pit Bulls** , each of which was friendly, lovable and docile.
All in all, every case of dog bites and attacks against **humans** that I have personally witnessed have been by dogs **other than Pit Bulls** , and the _one_ instance I witnessed of a **Pit Bull** attacking another **dog** was because it was a **wild animal acting on _instinct_**.
**Pit Bull** haters, put _that_ anectodal evidence in your pipe and smoke it!
---
### Author:  [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/15 "2001-02-05T05:53:34Z")
**greinspace** , anyone who lets their young child play with a dog, any dog, unattended, is an idiot. My dog is the sweetest that ever lived, but I wouldn’t leave him alone with a kid under 10, because I don’t necessarily trust the kid to behave correctly around the dog.
---
### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/16 "2001-02-05T06:00:12Z")
Good post, scratch,
I for one, however, want more information about dog on flounder agression.
---
### Author:  [@AquaPura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AquaPura)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/17 "2001-02-05T06:03:49Z")
Greinspace, use your brains, not your ass dipshit.
You verily well can let your kids play with the neighbors Pitbull as long as your kid is old enough to know HOW you play nicely with a dog. Provided you teach them this in the first place AND you have the owners permission AND you know that the dog is used to small children. Keep in mind that a domesitcated dog sees other humans as it’s pack, and if the dog is tired or sleepy or cranky just like us humans can be it will do like a canine does. FIRST move away… THEN voice its displeasure THEN it might snap if you irritate it enough. Or if you havent taught your kids how to respect an animals space and they are teasing or tourturing the dog.
SECONDLY, dogs can be territorial animals. Just like us humans who like to put up fences and security systems dogs know their space and if you are not known to them they might think to protect THEIR home and THEIR pack. Just becasue you let your kids run wild doesn’t mean we all have to watch out for YOUR damn kids in OUR yard when your kids WERE NOT invited there in the FIRST PLACE! Unless the owner invites you to come over and pet the dog YOU DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION! IF WE wanted you to know our dog we would have introduced you!
Dipshit.
---
### Author:  [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/18 "2001-02-05T06:07:22Z")
**oldscratch** , you already know how I feel about the whole topic–I just wanted to pop in and thank you for starting this thread and to let you know that it’s great.
People who want to “play God” frighten me and that’s just what these ridiculous “dog banning” individuals are doing.
---
### Author:  [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/19 "2001-02-05T06:08:48Z")
You might want to follow the links oldie posted grienspace, the temperament tests were done on 122 breeds of dog by an independent body.
The dog bite figures come from the Centres for Disease Control.
No-one but NO-ONE is saying that there are no aggressive pit bulls - what people are saying is that the reasons certain breeds have at certain times been regarded as “viscious” has as more to do with irresponsible breeding and irresponsible ownership than it does to do with the breed itself. Banning pit bulls will not address this problem (it may in fact make it worse, as there will then develop an “underground” market for them). Those people who seek big, bad, mean dogs to bolster their egos will simply find another breed to make big, bad and mean (and there are plenty of large-jawed, deep chested breeds of dog).
I wonder how many of these owners had a rottie 5 years ago, and a dobermann 5 years before that, and a German shepherd 5 years before that.
Personally, I think that you should have to hold a breeder’s license to breed any dog - most of us who want pets have no reason to breed them and it is entirely reasonable that our animals be de-sexed. Such a regulation would DRAMATICALLY cut the number of ill-bred dogs around. I also believe that socialisation and obedience training is desirable for ALL dogs, but absolutely vital (and should be mandatory) for large and utility breeds.
Dogs do not get to choose the homes they go to. The responsibility for selecting an appropriate dog for a particular environment (there are way too many utility dogs going mental in urban areas because owners didn’t understand the need of the breed relative to attention, exercise and training), and ensuring that dog is appropriately socialised, trained, confined, leashed, muzzled, and even put down if its temperament is unstable rests firmly with the OWNER. No matter how many breeds we ban, there will always be irresponsible owners, and short of banning all breeds except for the toy breeds, there will always be injuries and fatalities caused by bites from dogs which were not responsibly raised. We need to put the responsibility back where it belongs - with the OWNERS.
---
### Author:  [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2001, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151/20 "2001-02-05T06:23:11Z")
Olscratch, I’d like to shake your hand. And Gracie, my adorable Pit Bull, would like to lick your face. But then, she’d like to lick everybody’s face.
I dropped out of that thread once the zealots started using terms like “the Pit Bull Menace”. After we get to the McCarthyism stage in a debate, it’s all just shit-slinging. We’re not going to change anybody’s mind, as long as they can say shit like “I never thought mankind could come up with anything scarier than the Pit Bull for a dog.” Sounds a lot more like phobia than rhetoric to me…
Stoid started a thread in MPSIMS recently ([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=58613](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=58613)) about being attacked by a dog. In the time I’ve had my pit bull, over two years, I’ve been attacked by several dogs. Two German Shepherds, one Doberman (several times), and three mutts that I can recall right now. And there is one statistical correlation that I can make that holds true to all these dogs. They were all off of their leashes.
So, Stoid, I know how you feel. I sympathize. It’s terrifying, not only getting attacked, but then rushing your poor dog home, and checking for wounds, praying they’re okay. The adrenaline, the fear, the pure fury that comes from being attacked are awful, and I’m sorry you had to go through them. I just hope that you don’t conclude that all Pit Bulls are like that, or that all owners are that irresponsible.
As a side note, I’ve found that falling back on my Neanderthal instincts and hurling rocks at menacing dogs works really well. I’ve gotten used to picking up a good-sized rock whenever I see a dog off a leash, then turning and trying to avoid it altogether. If the dog attacks, I throw the rock. I’ve always missed, but it confuses the dog enough for it to keep its distance while I get myself and the dogs to safety.
So, to sum up, thanks, Oldscratch. And Grienspace, get therapy.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-cruelty-on-the-sdmb-a-tale-of-lies-and-attempted-murder/53151.md?page=2)