# Animal Domestication and Breeding; Cats **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 27, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463 "2015-12-27T14:57:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/1 "2015-12-27T14:57:37Z")
I’m curious to know if there are, or have been, any attempts to bring into existence miniature versions of the Big Cats (lions tigers etc.) Either through selective breeding of the actual species themselves or by selective breeding of the myriad varieties of already domesticated cats to create pseudo-versions, lets say a miniature tiger with all of the correct color and markings, body shape and so on. I’ve tried finding Information either confirming or denying this but it doesn’t exist or my google-fu sucks (possibly both). Also, I already know about the existence of the Savannah Cat. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/2 "2015-12-27T15:02:32Z")
Would these do? [http://www.toygers.nl/](http://www.toygers.nl/) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/3 "2015-12-27T15:17:37Z")
given the size of said big cats, and the fact that a “small” big cat is still pretty big, wouldn’t it take a _long_ time and countless generations to get there? Plus, as the Russian domesticated Red Fox shows, if you do this you probably won’t end up with just a small, tame lion or tiger. There would be a lot of other physical and behavioral changes that come along with breeding for domestication. “Domesticated” foxes have developed a lot of dog-like characteristics such as flopped ears, coat variations, raising tail, etc. [Wild red fox](http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000yaSENreLHY0/s/880/880/redfox1.jpg) [domesticated red fox.](http://25.media.tumblr.com/d3a2daa9e73e20ef79df35b3ad81b268/tumblr_mxtfnjoGrE1sqvukco1_1280.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/4 "2015-12-27T16:59:28Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Would these do? > > [http://www.toygers.nl/](http://www.toygers.nl/) sigh, yeah I saw those too before posting, didn’t think to include them in the disclaimer. I don’t care what the breeders say, those don’t look anything like tigers, just plain old tabby cats. **jz78817** Yeah the Russian foxes are, in part, what got me thinking about cats. Yeah, I think selective breeding for size and domesticability (is that a real word?) of the Big Cats into House Cats would yield…house cats. But I wonder if it would be possible to breed into existence (the above attempt not included) cats that actually looked like a miniature tiger with the correct colors, the facial ruff etc. (but not the aggressiveness of a real tiger)or a male lion with a magnificent mane. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/5 "2015-12-27T17:10:24Z")
[Ocicats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocicat) are a breed of domestic cat intended to resemble the colour and pattern of wildcats, especially ocelots, hence the name. There’s a ton of hobbyist breeders who breed hybrid wild cats with domestics. As you mentioned in the OP, savannah cats are hybrid servals, Bengals are backcrossed with Asian Leopard Cats, Chausies are a jungle cat hybrid, etc. These are terrible pets, for the most part. That’s why breeders don’t bother, for the most part - having a good pet trumps looks for most cat owners. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/6 "2015-12-27T17:59:54Z")
For the most part, the genes to express a Big Cat feature (such as the mane on male lions) simply do not exist in Felis domesticus (the species we refer to as “housecat”) so the only way to instruduce those genes is hybrids. Which we’ve already done and is not what you’re looking for anyway. There just are no cats with “big mane in the males” genes to use for breeding what you envision. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/7 "2015-12-27T18:05:33Z")
Perhaps it would be possible with gene splicing ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/8 "2015-12-27T20:59:00Z")
Yeah, I was just using the lion as an obvious example. Gene splicing did cross my mind, but would probably result in a non-viable (either reproductively or generally) specimen. On further consideration, the toyer does look like it has potential, just not where I want it yet. The ocicat will probably get there quicker though since visually the ocelot and domestic cats are more similar than cats and tigers. Personally, I would love to have a mini-mountain lion (seems like that one should be super easy) ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/9 "2015-12-27T21:07:30Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > [Ocicats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocicat) are a breed of domestic cat intended to resemble the colour and pattern of wildcats, especially ocelots, hence the name. > > There’s a ton of hobbyist breeders who breed hybrid wild cats with domestics. As you mentioned in the OP, savannah cats are hybrid servals, Bengals are backcrossed with Asian Leopard Cats, Chausies are a jungle cat hybrid, etc. These are terrible pets, for the most part. That’s why breeders don’t bother, for the most part - having a good pet trumps looks for most cat owners. used to live across the street from a pixie-bob breeder. Can’t speak for the cats, but she made a terrible neighbor. I agree, cat breeders should be kept for personality not looks:D ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/10 "2015-12-27T22:30:58Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Would these do? > > [http://www.toygers.nl/](http://www.toygers.nl/) Took a look at the page and the images and was extremely unimpressed. They just look like perfectly normal cats to me. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/11 "2015-12-28T01:44:07Z")
> [@DeptfordX](#): > > Took a look at the page and the images and was extremely unimpressed. They just look like perfectly normal cats to me. The coloration is close. What they really need to do is develop the ruff and musculature a bit. And somehow round the ears. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/12 "2015-12-28T03:54:35Z")
Maybe it didn’t work on my screen? They looked like ordinary domestic shorthair cats. Stripes is a common coloration. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/13 "2015-12-28T04:53:40Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Maybe it didn’t work on my screen? They looked like ordinary domestic shorthair cats. Stripes is a common coloration. The stripes seem darker and more solid than normal tabbies to me. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/14 "2015-12-28T05:07:58Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > [Ocicats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocicat) are a breed of domestic cat intended to resemble the colour and pattern of wildcats, especially ocelots, hence the name. > > There’s a ton of hobbyist breeders who breed hybrid wild cats with domestics. As you mentioned in the OP, savannah cats are hybrid servals, Bengals are backcrossed with Asian Leopard Cats, Chausies are a jungle cat hybrid, etc. These are terrible pets, for the most part. That’s why breeders don’t bother, for the most part - having a good pet trumps looks for most cat owners. Can’t speak for Chausies (never heard of them) but everything I’ve read and seen about Savannahs shows that they’re excellent pets, very docile. And I owned two Bengals for 18 years and they were absolutely great pets, nothing bad about them at all (other than being expensive)… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/15 "2015-12-28T06:22:25Z")
Bengal cats. (we have one) > **[Bengal cat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_cat)** > > The Bengal cat is a domesticated cat breed created from a hybrid of the Asian leopard cat (Prionailurus bengalensis), with domestic cats, especially the spotted Egyptian Mau. It is then usually bred with a breed that demonstrates a friendlier personality, because after breeding a domesticated cat with a wildcat, its friendly personality may not manifest in the kitten. The breed's name derives from the leopard cat's taxonomic name. > Bengals have a wild appearance; their golden shimmer comes from... Serengeti cats. > **[Serengeti cat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serengeti_cat)** > > The Serengeti is a breed of domestic cat, first developed by crossing a Bengal (domestic and wild hybrid) and an Oriental Shorthair. Recognized and registered by The International Cat Association (TICA), no other first generation crosses can be registered as Serengeti. From the Bengal × Oriental cross came the first foundation Serengeti. Breeders then worked with the cat to produce a cat that resembles the breed profile set by TICA. > Created by biologist Karen Sausman of Kingsmark Cattery in Ca Th... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2015, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/16 "2015-12-28T06:24:52Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Can’t speak for Chausies (never heard of them) but everything I’ve read and seen about Savannahs shows that they’re excellent pets, very docile. And I owned two Bengals for 18 years and they were absolutely great pets, nothing bad about them at all (other than being expensive)… Yes, had one who passed away at age 17, still have one who is now 19. Great pets. Not lap cats, much, but very smart and affectionate. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/17 "2015-12-29T05:28:56Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Maybe it didn’t work on my screen? They looked like ordinary domestic shorthair cats. Stripes is a common coloration. if you google toygers you will find there are about 15 or 20 official breeders and there are all kinds of pictures that show them better. Some of them look amazingly close in the markings and colors and some not at all. One breeder’s page showed a computer progressed image of one of their studs that depicted what the final goal for looks is for the breed. They really are aiming for mini-tigers complete with rounded ears and facial ruff and correct coloring and marking, body shape etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/18 "2015-12-29T12:32:20Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > given the size of said big cats, and the fact that a “small” big cat is still pretty big, wouldn’t it take a _long_ time and countless generations to get there? Plus, as the Russian domesticated Red Fox shows, if you do this you probably won’t end up with just a small, tame lion or tiger. \*\* There would be a lot of other physical and behavioral changes that come along with breeding for domestication. \*\* “Domesticated” foxes have developed a lot of dog-like characteristics such as flopped ears, coat variations, raising tail, etc. Some behavioral changes, sure; but most breeds of domestic cats don’t differ much from the [African wildcat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_wildcat) in their physical appearance. (Of course, cats weren’t really ever domesticated; _they_ domesticated humans instead! ;)) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/19 "2015-12-29T12:59:02Z")
I think a lot of our domestication went both ways. People are very good at “reading” dogs. People with a genetic heritage of herding can often digest lactose as adults. I’m sure there are lots of other adaptations in the human population to better interact with our domestic animals. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463/20 "2015-12-29T15:17:30Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > For the most part, the genes to express a Big Cat feature (such as the mane on male lions) simply do not exist in Felis domesticus (the species we refer to as “housecat”) so the only way to instruduce those genes is hybrids. Which we’ve already done and is not what you’re looking for anyway. > > There just are no cats with “big mane in the males” genes to use for breeding what you envision. Heh, as an anecdote - I one saw a male domestic cat with a very prominent mane. In fact, I tried to adopt him. I went to a vet who ran a small animal adoption service for her clients (to adopt out kittens and puppies that the owners could not give away). She had two kittens, part Egyptian Mao, part something else. The male kitten had a mane, the female kitten did not. I wanted to adopt them both, but someone had already adopted the male (I got the female, and still have her). I have never seen the like before or since. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-domestication-and-breeding-cats/741463.md?page=2)