# "ANIMAL FARM" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2001, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028 "2001-09-21T15:35:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jesse\_morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@jesse\_morrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesse_morrison)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/1 "2001-09-21T15:35:58Z")
“SERIOUS QUESTION” Do Holy Wars and Great Debates exist because, All Humans are Convinced that they are More Equal than “certain” other Humans? friend of Darwin, jesse ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/2 "2001-09-21T15:59:48Z")
Yes, they certainly do… …but if you’re asking “Do **All** Holy Wars and **All** Great Debates exist because, All Humans are Convinced that they are More Equal than “certain” other Humans?” then certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/3 "2001-09-21T15:59:56Z")
Yes, they certainly do… …but if you’re asking “Do **All** Holy Wars and **All** Great Debates exist because, All Humans are Convinced that they are More Equal than “certain” other Humans?” then certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/4 "2001-09-21T16:01:03Z")
Yes, they certainly do… …but if you’re asking “Do **All** Holy Wars and **All** Great Debates exist because, All Humans are Convinced that they are More Equal than “certain” other Humans?” then certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/5 "2001-09-21T16:02:08Z")
um, what happened there? I did that editing, but before I posted it 😕 ---
**Author:** ![jesse\_morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@jesse\_morrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesse_morrison)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/6 "2001-09-21T17:46:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Yes, they certainly do… > > …but if you’re asking > “Do **All** Holy Wars and **All** Great Debates exist because, All Humans > are Convinced that they are More Equal than “certain” > other Humans?” > > then certainly not. \*\* Hi mangetout, O.K., “ALL”. You say, “certainly not”—Will your next reply prove my point? friend of the meek, jesse ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/7 "2001-09-21T18:05:42Z")
So **jesse** , you started this Great Deabate. Are you saying you’re more equal than me? Huh? Well are you buddy? Ya wanna take it outside? Yeah, I’ll be your huckelberry. COME ON! But seriously, as to the O.P., no, not in the language you put it. Not **all** humans consider themselves superior. Unfortunately some do and sometimes they get a bit too fiesty. On the flip side, almost all wars can be broken down to greed. The guy might not think he is “superior” to his neighbor, he just wants his stuff. That’s an oversimplification of course, but I am hard pressed to find think of a single war where economics, in some form or another, wasn’t the major cause. Religon and ideals are usually just the trappings and the propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f19dbf/32.png) [@dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/8 "2001-09-21T18:08:15Z")
Didn’t some guy make a long silent film called intolerance that showed throughout history people causing mayham because they couldn’t tolerate people having different views etc. I think your right, it takes a very high opinion of yourself to try impose your will on another people ( especially if it involves killing them ! ). It amazes me that humans can achieve soooo much but can’t just ‘get along’. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/9 "2001-09-21T18:08:20Z")
erm, that should be “hard pressed to think of a war…” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/10 "2001-09-21T18:12:27Z")
By and large, I debate for my own edification, not out of a sense of superiority. For what that’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/11 "2001-09-21T18:21:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dude \* > \*\*It amazes me that humans can achieve soooo much but can’t just ‘get along’. \*\* From a biological point of view, I’d wager it’s because selfishness is a survival trait – getting more for yourself helps raise the odds that your genes will survive to future generations (at the expense of the other guys you took stuff from). Being selfless is a noble idea and all, but when a hungry cheetah is bearing down on your pack o’ primates, you want the cheetah to eat The Other Guy… ---
**Author:** ![atypicalcarl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@atypicalcarl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atypicalcarl)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/12 "2001-09-21T19:16:38Z")
Here’s my 2 cents: I’ve never met _anybody_ who did not consider himself superior to _somebody._ Is this the reason for a great debate? I don’t think so. I am occasionally wrong and I assume that many others realize this about thimselves, too. The dialectic serves to show the truth of an argument by pointing out the contradictions in another’s argument. The great debate topics will probably never be resolved, but they aren’t approached with a superior attitude by **everyone.** It’s necessary to debate with confidence, but I learn nothing when my arguments are proven right. I learn often. ---
**Author:** ![dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f19dbf/32.png) [@dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/13 "2001-09-21T19:33:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by dude \* > > \*\*It amazes me that humans can achieve soooo much but can’t just ‘get along’. \*\* > > From a biological point of view, I’d wager it’s because selfishness is a survival trait – getting more for yourself helps raise the odds that your genes will survive to future generations (at the expense of the other guys you took stuff from). > > Being selfless is a noble idea and all, but when a hungry cheetah is bearing down on your pack o’ primates, you want the cheetah to eat The Other Guy… \*\* BUT if you put yourself at risk by being selfish (like starting a war ) at you taking a very risky bet ? I understand the selfish gene bit but think its mainly statistical, people seem much more benign than that to me, fair trade seems the preferred way ( ok, i know its selfish at cause but… ) than ‘lets fight’. for example, mr bin laden, bags of cash, no worries decides to wage war on the usa, wouldn’t his genes have been better served with a life of luxury etc. its a kinda long way round of committing suicide init ? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/14 "2001-09-21T19:52:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dude \* > \*\*BUT if you put yourself at risk by being selfish (like starting a war ) at you taking a very risky bet ? > > I understand the selfish gene bit but think its mainly statistical, people seem much more benign than that to me, fair trade seems the preferred way ( ok, i know its selfish at cause but… ) than ‘lets fight’. > > for example, mr bin laden, bags of cash, no worries decides to wage war on the usa, wouldn’t his genes have been better served with a life of luxury etc. its a kinda long way round of committing suicide init ?\*\* The “selfish gene” also operates at family and clan levels, rather that just at the level of the individual. A man may fight to protect his pregnant sister because his nephew will have some of his genes. Wars originated when families banded together to protect their common good. Fighting for relatives is just as important in passing on the “selfish” gene as fighting for oneself. As misguided as he is, Bin Laden probably thinks that he is striking a blow for Arab Muslims, his extended “family”, to insure their prosperity. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/15 "2001-09-21T20:58:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jesse morrison \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > > \*\*Yes, they certainly do… > > > > …but if you’re asking > > “Do **All** Holy Wars and **All** Great Debates exist because, All Humans > > are Convinced that they are More Equal than “certain” > > other Humans?” > > > > then certainly not. \*\* > > Hi mangetout, > > O.K., “ALL”. > > You say, “certainly not”—Will your next reply prove > my point? > > friend of the meek, > > jesse \*\* Not quite sure what you’re asking me for, perhaps I misunderstand exactly what you mean by ‘great debate’ (perhaps it would help if you clarified - I had assumed you meant the dialogues that go on in the **great debates** forum, but I’m doubting that now), but in any case, I don’t think they can **all** be primarily motivated by overt feelings of superiority. As an example, we could take the creation/evolution debate; most of the time, the people taking part believe **the idea they have accepted** is superior to that of the other side, but they don’t seem to necessarily think **themselves** superior. ---
**Author:** ![jesse\_morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@jesse\_morrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesse_morrison)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/16 "2001-09-21T21:14:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by dude \* > > \*\*BUT if you put yourself at risk by being selfish (like starting a war ) at you taking a very risky bet ? > > > > I understand the selfish gene bit but think its mainly statistical, people seem much more benign than that to me, fair trade seems the preferred way ( ok, i know its selfish at cause but… ) than ‘lets fight’. > > > > for example, mr bin laden, bags of cash, no worries decides to wage war on the usa, wouldn’t his genes have been better served with a life of luxury etc. its a kinda long way round of committing suicide init ?\*\* > > The “selfish gene” also operates at family and clan levels, rather that just at the level of the individual. A man may fight to protect his pregnant sister because his nephew will have some of his genes. Wars originated when families banded together to protect their common good. Fighting for relatives is just as important in passing on the “selfish” gene as fighting for oneself. > > As misguided as he is, Bin Laden probably thinks that he is striking a blow for Arab Muslims, his extended “family”, to insure their prosperity. \*\* Hi Beeblebrox, “Group Selection” has pretty much been thrown out by most Biologists. “Kin Selection” will probably be the next to go. Amotz Zahavi (book–“The Handicap Principle”) has a new theory. Although his research has been done with birds, I think it fits most Humans, especially Bin Laden. Bin Laden has placed himself in a “handicap” position, in order to prove his “fitness”. Females dig this, they want their offspring to have his genes because of his display of “fearlessness”, thus proving his Fitness. What would you do if there was a “mad dog” in your yard, and your wife told you that she had best go get “Mack” next door to take care of the problem? jesse (divorced) ---
**Author:** ![jesse\_morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@jesse\_morrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesse_morrison)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/17 "2001-09-21T21:53:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by atypicalcarl \* > \*\*Here’s my 2 cents: > > I’ve never met _anybody_ who did not consider himself superior to _somebody._ > > Is this the reason for a great debate? I don’t think so. > > I am occasionally wrong and I assume that many others realize this about thimselves, too. The dialectic serves to show the truth of an argument by pointing out the contradictions in another’s argument. The great debate topics will probably never be resolved, but they aren’t approached with a superior attitude by **everyone.** It’s necessary to debate with confidence, but I learn nothing when my arguments are proven right. > > I learn often. \*\* Hi atypicalcarl, Which debates do you show to your wife and/or girlfriend, the ones you “WIN” or the ones you “lose”? What is your “motivation” for learning? Becoming, if so, becoming “What”? "Who is watching? “Knowledge is limited” –J. Krishnamurti jesse ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/18 "2001-09-22T02:14:11Z")
“Animal Farm” is the single most perfect example of political satire, with the possible exception of Jonathon Smith. I cringe to see it reduced to a couple of lines. If you dont know what a _Stakhanovite_ is… Damn! I cant remember the horse’s name. ---
**Author:** ![atypicalcarl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@atypicalcarl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atypicalcarl)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/19 "2001-09-22T03:07:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jesse morrison \* > **Which debates do you show to your wife and/or girlfriend, > the ones you “WIN” or the ones you “lose”?** Hi, Jesse. I see your point, but I don’t do it for an ego trip. If I feel the need for gushing praise, I’ll post an idea on mom’s fridge (mine is covered with my kids’ stuff.) > [@](#): > > **What is your “motivation” for learning? Becoming, if so, > becoming “What”? "Who is watching?** I enjoy intelligent conversation and debate - as do you, I’m sure - and learning from people skilled in debate makes me better at it. But you’re right… nobody’s keeping score. ---
**Author:** ![jesse\_morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@jesse\_morrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesse_morrison)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028/20 "2001-09-22T03:15:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jesse morrison \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > > > \*\*Yes, they certainly do… > > > > > > …but if you’re asking > > > “Do **All** Holy Wars and **All** Great Debates exist because, All Humans > > > are Convinced that they are More Equal than “certain” > > > other Humans?” > > > > > > then certainly not. \*\* > > > > Hi mangetout, > > > > O.K., “ALL”. > > > > You say, “certainly not”—Will your next reply prove > > my point? > > > > friend of the meek, > > > > jesse \*\* > > Not quite sure what you’re asking me for, perhaps I misunderstand exactly what you mean by ‘great debate’ (perhaps it would help if you clarified - I had assumed you meant the dialogues that go on in the **great debates** forum, but I’m doubting that now), but in any case, I don’t think they can **all** be primarily motivated by overt feelings of superiority. > As an example, we could take the creation/evolution debate; most of the time, the people taking part believe **the idea they have accepted** is superior to that of the other side, but they don’t seem to necessarily think **themselves** superior. \*\* Hi mangetout, You been to the Bible Belt lately, and talked to a born again Southern Baptist? On the other side, have you ever talked to an Ayn Randian? Sounds like you lean towards Egualitarianism. If this is true, please tell me why I am broke, and do not have a girl friend? jesse [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-farm/83028.md?page=2)