# Animal RIghts (sort of) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 31, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339 "2008-07-31T10:47:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/1 "2008-07-31T10:47:57Z")
Anyone else see the letter in today’s New York Times? [Here it is.](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/31/opinion/31kristof.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin) Registration required I think. What a nice bit of writing. It perfectly expresses my own confused thoughts on the subject. Our grandchildren will be appalled at how we treat animals. But we live in this time, not their future. We are as trapped by it as out slaveholding ancestors were. On the other hand, if nobody takes a stand now, what sort of people are we? At least, I think, we can agree that unnecessary cruelty is unnecessary. (That is why we call it that.) “Animal rights” is a silly term. But what sort of people are we if we allow ourselves to be cruel when we need not be? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/2 "2008-07-31T11:23:04Z")
I agree comprehensively with the views of the writer of that article. I find it odd that the human tendency to anthropomorphise is absent for some some animals, but not others. For example, I could never see cats or dogs appearing on Western menus, barring some sort of apocalyptic event. ---
**Author:** ![Lavender\_Falcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b782af/32.png) [@Lavender\_Falcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lavender_Falcon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/3 "2008-07-31T11:42:16Z")
Yeah, that’s a good Op-Ed. I think there’s a balance. There’s nothing wrong with eating meat, but some of our methods of raising animals don’t sit well with me. I think part of the problem is that most people never have contact with the animals while they’re alive. When I was a kid, we’d go to the family farm for holidays, so I did have some exposure to beef cattle. I’d spend hours with them, getting some of them to come up to the fence so I could pet them. At the same time, I knew someday I might eat the very animal I was interacting with. It’s hard to look into the eyes of something you will someday eat, and I think that gives a degree of respect and makes you think about how that animal is treated. At the same time, there’s no way I’d go vegetarian. First of all, I’ve tried it, and my body does better if I include meat in my diet. Second of all, being vegetarian doesn’t mean no animals die. I was surprised a couple of years ago to find out, for example, that raspberry and sunflower farmers can get permits to poison flocks of birds that would otherwise destroy the crop. You don’t get something for nothing. The mere fact that we exist will have an impact on other life. However, I think we can often be wiser about that impact and make more considered choices about the impact we have. We have a right to exist too, but we also have the reasoning capacity to think about how we go about that existence. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/4 "2008-07-31T12:12:25Z")
I agree with the OP. Eating meat is fine, but animals shouldn’t have to suffer uneccesarily for it. The conditions in which livestock (esp chickens in the UK) are raised is appalling and quite frankly we should be ashamed. I want meat that led a happy and healthy life and was slaughtered close to the farm with as little stress as possible (stunned and bled). Vegetarians don’t get a free pass if they drink milk or eat eggs as male chicks and cattle are killed soon after birth to maintain laying flocks and dairy herds. People who eat organic meat don’t get a free pass either, animals raised organically are more likely to have diseases (a recent Dutch study found that 25% of organically raised pigs had pneumonia compared with 4% in non-organic). Studies on organic chickens found that 72% had parasitic or bacterial infections. Most damning of all, in organic flocks the level of campylobacter infection, 100% vs just 33% in non-organic. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/5 "2008-07-31T15:11:55Z")
On the subject of “vegetarians don’t get a free pass” - I think that only applies to the self-righteous ones who trumpet how everyone but them is killing animals. I think most ethical vegetarians realize that animals die regardless of their choices, but eat as they do knowing that at least they’re doing something. **Fewer** animals are harmed by their choices, and the only way to get that number down to zero would probably involve not existing. (Full disclosure: I am an ovo-lacto vegetarian who buys and cooks meat for my husband and others. My reasons for being a vegetarian include ethical, environmental, and health reasons, and these days for my digestive “peace” - after not digesting meat proteins for so long, it tends to make me physically ill. No, it’s not a “poor widdle animals” reaction - I’m very matter-of-fact about the preparation and cooking process.) ---
**Author:** ![Lionne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Lionne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionne)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/6 "2008-07-31T19:03:57Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] People who eat organic meat don’t get a free pass either, animals raised organically are more likely to have diseases (a recent Dutch study found that 25% of organically raised pigs had pneumonia compared with 4% in non-organic). Studies on organic chickens found that 72% had parasitic or bacterial infections. Most damning of all, in organic flocks the level of campylobacter infection, 100% vs just 33% in non-organic. [/QUOTE] Would you happen to have a cite for these figures? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/7 "2008-07-31T19:12:57Z")
[QUOTE=Lionne] Would you happen to have a cite for these figures? Thanks. [/QUOTE] [Here](http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/the-great-organic-myths-why-organic-foods-are-an-indulgence-the-world-cant-afford-818585.html) is where I got them from. And here’s the section with the figures I quoted: > [@](#): > > \*\*Myth five: Organic food is healthier \*\* > > To quote Hohenheim University: “No clear conclusions about the quality of organic food can be reached using the results of present literature and research results.” What research there is does not support the claims made for organic food. > > Large studies in Holland, Denmark and Austria found the food-poisoning bacterium Campylobacter in 100 per cent of organic chicken flocks but only a third of conventional flocks; equal rates of contamination with Salmonella (despite many organic flocks being vaccinated against it); and 72 per cent of organic chickens infected with parasites. > > This high level of infection among organic chickens could cross-contaminate non-organic chickens processed on the same production lines. Organic farmers boast that their animals are not routinely treated with antibiotics or (for example) worming medicines. But, as a result, organic animals suffer more diseases. In 2006 an Austrian and Dutch study found that a quarter of organic pigs had pneumonia against 4 per cent of conventionally raised pigs; their piglets died twice as often. > > Disease is the major reason why organic animals are only half the weight of conventionally reared animals – so organic farming is not necessarily a boon to animal welfare. I think I misquoted the figures for infections in chickens, I somehow skipped the word “flocks”. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/8 "2008-07-31T19:16:36Z")
I mostly agree with the writer. I eat meat, eggs, milk - I’m a true omnivore. I also buy free-range eggs and would really prefer to buy meat and milk from animals that weren’t treated badly (I don’t eat veal at all). Would I put my money where my mouth is, and pay more for cruelty-free meat? Yeah, I would. I don’t give a rat’s ass about organic, but I do care how the animals I eat are treated before they’re slaughtered. The funny thing for me is when they talk about factory farms and such, I was raised in farm country, and as far as I know, farmers aren’t treating their animals like that. Maybe if I saw inside the barns, I’d see a different story. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/9 "2008-07-31T19:27:40Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] (I don’t eat veal at all). [/QUOTE] There are ethical veal farmers. The calves that go to veal are the males produced by dairy herds. They either go to veal crates or they get killed. Rosé veal is produced without the crate and is therefore a lot less cruel. The problem is finding the ethical veal as I don’t think there’s a lot about (at least not in the UK). ---
**Author:** ![Lionne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Lionne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionne)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/10 "2008-08-02T18:07:44Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] [Here](http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/the-great-organic-myths-why-organic-foods-are-an-indulgence-the-world-cant-afford-818585.html) is where I got them from. And here’s the section with the figures I quoted: [/QUOTE] Interesting article. I’m going to browse around for some more info on this. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/animal-rights-sort-of/458339/11 "2008-08-02T18:15:31Z")
I can’t read the article, but I’ll throw in my opinion - I am and have always been against factory farming in all forms. I do the vast majority of my shopping at a local organic co-op and I will generally only eat beef or chicken if I am absolutely certain that it came from an organic farm. It’s not so much that I care about the animals, it’s more that I care about my own health.