# Ann Coulter v. Al Franken **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789 "2003-10-11T03:04:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Oktberfest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@Oktberfest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oktberfest)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/1 "2003-10-11T03:04:54Z")
Who is more dishonest Ann Coulter or Al Franken? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/2 "2003-10-11T03:19:05Z")
I will cast my vote for Coulter (lying, that is) ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/3 "2003-10-11T03:27:28Z")
What has Ann Coulter said that was ever a lie? Read her latest column if you want to hear her response to specific claims of some people who charge her with “lying”. ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/4 "2003-10-11T03:40:48Z")
Al Franken, but only because he admits that what he says isn’t true, or at the very least, only parody. He was sued by Fox over the “Fair and Balanced” thing and defended himself with “Its parody. I’m just making a joke.” Fine. Make a joke. But don’t expect that your “joke” should be taken seriouly by anyone but a fool. The fact that Al is hiding behind his “joke” makes him not only a liar, but a coward. At least Coulter says “This is me and what I believe.” No joke. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/5 "2003-10-11T03:57:28Z")
Ann discusses this very thing today: [http://www.anncoulter.com/](http://www.anncoulter.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/6 "2003-10-11T03:59:15Z")
Can anyone cite an example from Franken’s new book that is a deliberate lie on his part. I’m not talking about situations that are clearly satirical, but something that is just flat false. Ann Coulter (R-She-Bitch) wouldn’t know the truth if it tried to pick her up in a dyke bar. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/7 "2003-10-11T04:04:32Z")
The difference is very simple. Coulter lies, Franken doesn’t. > [@](#): > > The fact that Al is hiding behind his “joke” makes him not only a liar, but a coward. At least Coulter says “This is me and what I believe.” What has Franken said that was a lie? When has Franken said that he didn’t really mean something. Just because he’s funny doesn’t mean he he doesn’t mean it. If he’s kidding about something he;s “kidding on the square.” ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/8 "2003-10-11T04:10:24Z")
JamesCarroll: Parody is afforded special 1st amendment protections. Parody is not an excuse, it’s a legal defense against a trademark infringement suit. Fox said people would see Franken’s book and really believe it was an official Fox News product because of the words “fair and balanced.” Aside from the fact that “fair and balanced” is most likely not trademark-able in the first place (the Patent and Trademark office will take your money and give you a patent or trademark on anything you desire; whether it will stand up in court in a challenge is a completely different matter), the first amendment does not allow trademark to be a limit on free speech when one parodies a trademarked product. To censor Franken (whether you agree with him or not) due to “fair and balanced” would be anathema to the first amendment. And, for the record, I hate all these people, but Coulter is a lying psychopath, while Franken is nothing worse than unfunny. Coulter lies again and again, while Franken does not. Lies are not subjective, by the way. Whether something is true or not is not a matter of opinion. Coulter is a liar, and so is Hannity, and so is O’Reilly. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/9 "2003-10-11T05:14:17Z")
What does Coulter say that is a lie? I can see how people on the other side of the spectrum disagree with her, but that doesn’t make what she says “lies”. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/10 "2003-10-11T05:58:47Z")
Coulter’s lies and half-truths are well documented on the web (some links below). However, I’m not aware that anything in Franken’s book has been proven to be false. [http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20020713.html](http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20020713.html) [http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20030630.html](http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20030630.html) [http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20010716.html](http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20010716.html) Of Franken, Spinsanity says: > [@](#): > > For the most part, Franken does get his facts right. His deconstruction of Ann Coulter’s Slander (which he notes relies in part on my review of Coulter’s book for this site and Salon), is excellent, as is his evisceration of Sean Hannity and Let Freedom Ring. Just my .02 ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/11 "2003-10-11T06:04:19Z")
(Following information taken from Al Franken’s book _Lies_.) Ann Coulter made the following claim as part of a larger claim that the New York Times is out of touch with what Americans really care about: “It took _The New York Times_ two days to deem Earnhardt’s death sufficiently important to mention it on the first page. Demonstrating the left’s renowned populist touch, the article began, ‘His death brought a silence fo the Wal-Mart.’” In fact, the NYT ran a front-page story the day after he died (2/19/01), which began, “Stock car racing’s greatest star, Dale Earnhardt, was killed today as he tried to block a car from catching the two front-runners…” > [@](#): > > Take, for example, this gem from page 68 [of Coulter’s book _Slander_]. To support her claim that the mainstream media is in the hands of lefties, Coulter makes the point that _Newsweek_ Washington bureau chief Evan Thomas “is the son of Norman Thomas, a four-time Socialist candidate for president.” Actually, Norman Thomas was the Socialist candidate _six_ times, running first in 1928 with a radical proposal for something called “Social Security.” It’s odd that Coulter understates the number of times that Thomas was the Socialist party nominee, because that would make her argument that much stronger. _If_ Norman Thomas had been Evan Thomas’s father. Which he was not. > [@](#): > > On page 118 […] she writes that when the media consortium study on the 2000 Florida vote was released, it showed “that Bush had won on any count.” But the _Washington Post_ story she cites says that the “Study Finds Gore Might Have Won Statewide Tally of All Uncounted Ballots.” The reason there are so many capital letters in that quote is that it is from the headline of the story. > [@](#): > > On page 8 of _Slander_, Coulter refers to a controversial 1994 Christmas Day speech given by Jesse Jackson on British TV. “_The New York Times_ did not report the speech,” she complains. Checking the endnote reveals her methodology. “LexisNexis search of _New York Times_ archives from December 1994 through January 1995 for ‘Jesse Jackson and Germany and fascism and South Africa’ produces no documents.” Well, yeah. > > A more reasonable search (Jesse Jackson and Christmas and Britain) shows that, yes, of course, the _Times_ did run an article on December 20 about the controversy using excerpts of Jackson’s speech, which was prerecorded. There’s more where that came from. Franken devotes two chapters to easily verified examples of Coulter’s dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/12 "2003-10-11T06:06:37Z")
“silence fo the Wal-Mart” should read “silence to the Wal-Mart”. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/13 "2003-10-11T06:19:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JamesCarroll \* > **Al Franken, but only because he admits that what he says isn’t true, or at the very least, only parody.** So, it’s only a lie if the person saying it admits it’s not true? Wow… what an interesting standard! :rolleyes: Coulter wins this contest, hands down. Take a look at them thar Spinsanity links **cmason** posted and see what you think. She makes me think of Robert Browning: > [@](#): > > _My first thought was, [s]he lied in every word, > That hoary cripple, with malicious eye > Askance to watch the working of his lie > On mine, and mouth scarce able to afford > Suppression of the glee that pursed and scored > Its edge, at one more victim gained thereby._ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/14 "2003-10-11T06:56:46Z")
> [@](#): > > - I sing of Olaf, glad and big…\* ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/15 "2003-10-11T11:19:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > [ > There’s more where that came from. Franken devotes two chapters to easily verified examples of Coulter’s dishonesty. \*\* And the link I showed you earlier is Coulter’s response. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/16 "2003-10-11T12:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > \*\*There’s more where that came from. Franken devotes two chapters to easily verified examples of Coulter’s dishonesty. \*\* As **Scylla** dutifully points out, the link he posted in the fifth post to this thread rebuts most of these charges (everything but the Florida media recount issue). To sum her response up: – The only flat-out wrong thing is the bit about Earnhardt not making the front page, which was corrected shortly after the book’s publication. – Norm Thomas was Evan Thomas’ _grandfather_, not his father, which is indeed an error on Coulter’s part, but it’s even more dishonest of Franken to suggest there is no family connection. – The Jesse Jackson speech included the following line: “In South Africa, the status quo was called racism. We rebelled against it. In Germany, it was called fascism. Now in Britain and the U.S. it is called conservatism.” The New York Times did not run anything about that aspect of his speech, which is what Coulter was highlighting – a simple report that “Jesse Jackson gave a speech” doesn’t convey the controversial content of that speech. Coulter could admittedly have been clearer on this point, but context makes what she’s saying reasonably clear. To be clear, I’m no fan of Ann Coulter. The Spinsanity articles, dealing as they do with her use of inflammatory rhetoric, the absurdist spin she places on many of her facts, and the gigantic leaps of logic she must make to reach her conclusions, are far more damning. Franken would be better off making those kinds of criticisms. But then he’d have to be a serious critic, and not just a snarky satirist. But let’s face it: Franken is in the Bush leagues (pun intended) of dishonesty. A better OP: Who’s more dishonest, Coulter or Michael Moore? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/17 "2003-10-11T12:56:27Z")
**Dewey** said it. The Spinsanity articles focus on the real problems in Coulter’s presentations - the lack of intellectual honesty, of using misleading facts to draw misleading inferences. That’s the reason Coulter is a problem. **Mr2001** ’s repost of the Franken charges suffer the same flaw I just ascribed to Coulter. Norman Thomas is Evan Thomas’ grandfather, a point Franken doesn’t share. Franken doesn’t lie, and, technically, he points out that what Coulter said isn’t true. But as far as intellectual honesty goes, Coulter’s misstatement is a small one and Franken’s omission is huge. So, too, with regard to the Jackson speech. The Times reported a speech, so, technically, Coulter’s claim that they didn’t report the speech is false. But her point was obvious: the Times did not report Jackson’s analogy of conservatism to Nazism. Franken doesn’t clarify this. An intellectually honest person strives to both say the correct fact and leave you with the correct impression. Neither Franken nor Coulter win any points for this. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/18 "2003-10-11T13:10:34Z")
…If Norman Thomas had been Evan Thomas’s father. Which he was not. As for the “Evan Thomas” thing. She admits this week that she lied. Evan Thomas’ father wasn’t the socialist. It was his GRANDfather. That makes all the difference. Yes, that’s quite a lie. Why didn’t Franken mention that it was his grandfather? He makes it seem she made it up out of whole cloth? I think his is more of a lie in that situation, by implying there was no factual basis whatsoever to her claim. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Belanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Jay\_Belanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Belanger)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/19 "2003-10-11T13:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \*-- \*\*Norm Thomas was Evan Thomas’ _grandfather_, not his father, which is indeed an error on Coulter’s part, but it’s even more dishonest of Franken to suggest there is no family connection. > \*\* This was, I think, particularly brilliant on Al Franken’s part. He criticizes Ann Coulter for using endnotes because it makes it easy to hide things. He goes on for several pages on how Ann Coulter hides misleading statements and poor research by using endnotes. Anyhow, Al Franken writes “Evan Thomas is the grandson of Norman Thomas.” Why did Ann Coulter not see this? Because Al Franken put this in and endnote. Jay ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789/20 "2003-10-11T14:03:33Z")
Bingo. Al nailed Ann’s lying ass to the wall with that endnote, precisely because it shows the inherent dishonesty of her rhetorical methods–harp endlessly on the technical truth, bury or ignore what to anybody else would be the important truth. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ann-coulter-v-al-franken/206789.md?page=2)