# Annie-Xmas, I can think of a word that fits **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000 "2017-07-11T14:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/181 "2017-07-12T17:54:17Z")
“Fundamentally inferior” has no meaning if it’s not attached to some other negative attribute which is thought to be “fundamental”. It’s only after you’re ascribing some other negative aspect that you can decide that this negative aspect is fundamental. But “fundamentally inferior” can’t exist as a concept on its own. I can buy the “inferior souls” religious part, although I don’t think it’s relevant in this particular discussion since I don’t think that’s what’s being conjured up by the term “nigger”. But “blackness itself”, no. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/182 "2017-07-12T18:05:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “Fundamentally inferior” has no meaning if it’s not attached to some other negative attribute which is thought to be “fundamental”. It’s only after you’re ascribing some other negative aspect that you can decide that this negative aspect is fundamental. But “fundamentally inferior” can’t exist as a concept on its own. > > I can buy the “inferior souls” religious part, although I don’t think it’s relevant in this particular discussion since I don’t think that’s what’s being conjured up by the term “nigger”. But “blackness itself”, no. I don’t think a lot of in-depth, soul-searching thought is/has been put into this sort of thing by folks who throw around racial slurs (whether in their heads or in conversation). But I think a big part of American racism comes from that extra-oomph needed to justify the extreme brutality of chattel slavery beyond other contemporary forms of racism (segregation, colonialism, etc.), and rubs off on some modern racists, to the point that they instinctively and “naturally” see black people as fundamentally inferior, regardless of their behavior or any other qualities, and they don’t really know why. Just another one of those “that’s just the way it is” beliefs – men are superior to women, whites are superior to blacks, the sexual purity of women is much more important than the sexual purity of men, homosexuality is dangerous and wrong, etc. I think when talking about people (and racism in particular) “fundamentally inferior” has a very clear meaning. I’m quite sure we’ve seen this phrase, together, on this board many, many times in other discussions, without any need to dig futher. I think a slave-owner wouldn’t have batted an eye if their neighbor had discussed the fundamental inferiority of black people, nor would a modern KKK Grand Wizard. Do you think they’d have any confusion about the concept? Would they need to talk about behaviors? If shown a black person who is clearly superior to the average white person in everything quantifiable, would they have any qualms about labeling this person as still fundamentally inferior to white people? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/183 "2017-07-12T18:05:45Z")
I’m beginning to think **BigT** is on to something. > [@BigT](#): > > Since you’ve given me advice, **iiandyiiii** , I’ll give you some on **F-P**. He has a pattern. He finds someone who is being rightfully derided for something bad they did–whether a poster or someone else. He then comes up with some out-there excuse for it that anyone could easily see the flaws in. And then, when you point out those flaws, he either keeps finding even more ridiculous ways to deal with it, all in an effort to get you frustrated so he can say he won. > > In other words, he’s just posting this stuff to be contrary, and doesn’t believe a word of it. He’s not even consistent about it. As he told me before, it’s just a game for him. > > It is thus pointless to engage with him. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/184 "2017-07-12T18:09:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think when talking about people (and racism in particular) “fundamentally inferior” has a very clear meaning. I’m quite sure we’ve seen this phrase, together, on this board many, many times in other discussions, without any need to dig futher. I think a slave-owner wouldn’t have batted an eye if their neighbor had discussed the fundamental inferiority of black people, nor would a modern KKK Grand Wizard. Do you think they’d have any confusion about the concept? Would they need to talk about behaviors? Quite possibly not, but that’s because the associated behaviors and traits would be self-understood. > [@](#): > > If shown a black person who is clearly superior to the average white person in everything quantifiable, would they have any qualms about labeling this person as still fundamentally inferior to white people? I’ve addressed this repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/185 "2017-07-12T18:13:01Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I’m beginning to think **BigT** is on to something. Well that sounds like a bannable offense you’re talking about, and you’re a moderator. Take a stance here. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/186 "2017-07-12T18:13:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well that sounds like a bannable offense you’re talking about, and you’re a moderator. Take a stance here. If being contrary was a banable offense, this would be a lonely place. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/187 "2017-07-12T18:18:47Z")
Alright, I’ll stop for now. I think I’ve made my views clear, at least. If **Richard Parker** gets it, then that’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/188 "2017-07-12T18:19:44Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > If being contrary was a banable offense, this would be a lonely place. It was my understanding that posting things to be contrary while not believing a word of it would constitute trolling. Is this incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/189 "2017-07-12T18:24:22Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I’m beginning to think **BigT** is on to something. Yep > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well that sounds like a bannable offense you’re talking about, and you’re a moderator. Take a stance here. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > If being contrary was a banable offense, this would be a lonely place. it’s not just being contrary, is it? It’s taking an opposing view, without saying you are doing so, for the sake of riling people up, to have an argument. What is that called again? Oh yes, trolling. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/190 "2017-07-12T18:24:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It was my understanding that posting things to be contrary while not believing a word of it would constitute trolling. Is this incorrect? So this is the point you want to nitpick out of all that? I don’t care and have no opinion on the depth of your sincerity. It does, however, appear that you like to find small issues within a larger context, and proceed debate them beyond all real meaning. That’s “the on to something” bit that is relevant here. Whether you are sincere, being a contrarian/Devil’s advocate, or actively trolling is a minor point. And I’m not going to play the debate it game. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/191 "2017-07-12T18:33:12Z")
I don’t know, people seem to take trolling pretty seriously around here. That includes the moderating staff, which has banned numerous people over such behavior. So it’s a bit surprising that you would consider that aspect to be a “nitpick” or “minor point”. Other than that, I don’t care about your opinion of my posting style. (Actually FWIW, I don’t care much about that either - if I get banned I get banned. I was just curious to see if you would stand by your words or were just running your mouth.) You or anyone else can ignore my posts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/192 "2017-07-12T18:34:47Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think some people are saying some silly things in this thread, particularly on the question of whether “nigger” has connotations other than just “being black”. > > Thought experiment: > There’s a restaurant in small mostly-white town in Alabama. A bunch of customers are hanging out there eating their Alabaman food, chatting with the waitstaff, as they do most days. > > Then in walks a black couple. They are wearing nice, tidy, clothing. Their hair is neatly trimmed. One of them is wearing glasses. They sit at a table, politely chat with the waitstaff, using “proper” English, eat their food, leave a nice tip, don’t make a mess, and depart. > > The next morning, another black couple walks in. They are covered in tatoos and have “grills” and cornrows or dreds. They are wearing gangsta rap shirts and very low-slung jeans and Air Jordans. They are loud and disruptive, using lots of slang and vernacular, and then get in a big and very vocal argument with the waitress accusing her of trying to rip them off, and then storm off in a cloud of profanity, having underpaid their bill. > Are those two couples equally likely to be described as “niggers” after they depart? > Because while the probably is not zero for the first couple, I’m quite sure that it’s vastly higher for the second couple. And in fact, if I had constructed this thought experiment slightly different, describing the first couple, and then asking for characteristics the second couple could have that would increase the probability that they would be called “nigger”, it’s not like people would just be like “umm, blacker skin?”. > My point being, it’s possible that both: > (a) “nigger” is a word that has historically been used to describe and dehumanize people purely based on their skin color > AND > (b) “nigger” is associated with a set of stereotypical traits stereotypically associated with blackness. (I started out saying “negative traits”, but while some of them are clearly negative, some are value-neutral.) > > And it follows from (b) that, given that there are millions of black people in America, some of them, purely by chance, presumably fit the traits mentioned in (b). > Now, I think it is was odd (and, given the reaction she received, clearly a bad idea) for Annie to publicly describe, on the SDMB, her private thoughts on two particular individuals. But I think it’s a bit silly for people to act as if what she was saying was literally without meaning. > > I’m half Jewish, and many of my friends and half my family is Jewish. If I met a Jew who happened, purely by chance, to be an incredibly cheap asshole, constantly trying to rip people off and going way out of his way to save every last penny, and if that individual also had a huge nose, and was named “Shlomo”, I might think to myself “wow, it’s incredible how much Shlomo fits all the worst Jewish stereotypes”. And I can imagine a SDMB thread entitled something like “guilty thoughts you’ve had” in which I might conceivably post that anecdote. Although there is no anti-Jewish slur word that has either the historical weight or the negative implications of “nigger”. I don’t know anyone here who is doing what you are describing. For myself, I explicitly said that certain blacks would be more likely to be called nigger than other blacks. As for your Jewish friend, would you come onto this MB and say you consider him to be a Kike although you don’t actually call him that? Because that’s what our **Annie** did. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/193 "2017-07-12T18:41:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know, people seem to take trolling pretty seriously around here. That includes the moderating staff, which has banned numerous people over such behavior. So it’s a bit surprising that you would consider that aspect to be a “nitpick” or “minor point”. > > Other than that, I don’t care about your opinion of my posting style. (Actually FWIW, I don’t care much about that either - if I get banned I get banned. I was just curious to see if you would stand by your words or were just running your mouth.) You or anyone else can ignore my posts. Running my mouth? Wow. What’s to stand by? I’ve made it clear that I don’t have an opinion on your sincerity. I’m not ignoring it, but I have no opinion. I have made no conclusion as to whether or not you act this way to be a simple contrarian, you are sincere, or take it the extreme of trolling. It can’t be that challenging a concept. If that’s not standing by my words, so be it. The behavior I do have an opinion on, which is pretty obvious regardless of your posting sincerity, is all the other stuff mentioned in that post. So yeah, the issue of your sincerity is pretty irrelevant. But hey- way to find the tiny piece to argue and ignore the big issue! Anyway- like I said, I’m not going to play the “nitpick it to death” game. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/194 "2017-07-12T18:43:53Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > If being contrary was a banable offense, this would be a lonely place. No it wouldn’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/195 "2017-07-12T18:44:22Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Thought experiment: > There’s a restaurant in small mostly-white town in Alabama. A bunch of customers are hanging out there eating their Alabaman food, chatting with the waitstaff, as they do most days. > > Then in walks a black couple. They are wearing nice, tidy, clothing. Their hair is neatly trimmed. One of them is wearing glasses. They sit at a table, politely chat with the waitstaff, using “proper” English, eat their food, leave a nice tip, don’t make a mess, and depart. > > The next morning, another black couple walks in. They are covered in tatoos and have “grills” and cornrows or dreds. They are wearing gangsta rap shirts and very low-slung jeans and Air Jordans. They are loud and disruptive, using lots of slang and vernacular, and then get in a big and very vocal argument with the waitress accusing her of trying to rip them off, and then storm off in a cloud of profanity, having underpaid their bill. > Are those two couples equally likely to be described as “niggers” after they depart? Probably not, because one couple will have pissed people off, and pissed off people insult others. Here’s an additional thought experiment: A third couple comes in and behaves like the first couple. How likely are people to call them “niggers”? More likely than they were before the second couple. Here’s an additional thought experiment: The first couple walks in. They are wearing nice, tidy, clothing. Their hair is neatly trimmed. One of them is wearing glasses. They sit at a table and politely chat with the waitstaff using “proper” English. One of them doesn’t get what they ordered. They point that out, eat their replaced food, leave a nice tip, don’t make a mess, and depart. How likely is this couple to be called “niggers”? I bet it would be pretty fucking high. I bet it would be pretty fucking high even if no one would think twice about a white couple doing the same thing. Because that’s how racism and bigotry work. And you’re a fucking fool if you think people earn racial slurs. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/196 "2017-07-12T18:46:20Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Running my mouth? > > Wow. SUCH an uppity woman. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/197 "2017-07-12T18:47:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No it wouldn’t. > > Regards, > > Shodan Ban the fool! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/198 "2017-07-12T18:50:10Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What’s to stand by? I’ve made it clear that I don’t have an opinion on your sincerity. I’m not ignoring it, but I have no opinion. I have made no conclusion as to whether or not you act this way to be a simple contrarian, you are sincere, or take it the extreme of trolling. It can’t be that challenging a concept. If that’s not standing by my words, so be it. > > The behavior I do have an opinion on, which is pretty obvious regardless of your posting sincerity, is all the other stuff mentioned in that post. So yeah, the issue of your sincerity is pretty irrelevant. > > But hey- way to find the tiny piece to argue and ignore the big issue! > > Anyway- like I said, I’m not going to play the “nitpick it to death” game. ISTM that you’re just repeating your earlier post, but at greater length. OK. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/199 "2017-07-12T18:56:11Z")
Tapatalk weirdness. Ignore. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/200 "2017-07-12T18:57:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that you’re just repeating your earlier post, but at greater length. OK. Not quite, but fine by me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000.md?page=11)