# Annie-Xmas, I can think of a word that fits **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000 "2017-07-11T14:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/281 "2017-07-13T16:35:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So there’s no difference between thinking of some one as a black person, and thinking of them as a nigger? That doesn’t make sense, as has been pointed out. > > You of all people should be able to recognize the difference. > > Regards, > Shodan Many of us (most of us, hopefully) don’t think of anyone as that slur. For any that do, the difference is probably mostly what mood they’re in. If they’re in a good mood, black people are black people. If they’re angry, black people (or the ones nearby, at least) are \*\*\*\*\*\*s. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/282 "2017-07-13T16:41:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So there’s no difference between thinking of some one as a black person, and thinking of them as a nigger? That doesn’t make sense, as has been pointed out. > > You of all people should be able to recognize the difference. I, along with a number of others, have had the term directed at me for no reason other than being black. I think it’s fair to say that the racists in question do not see a difference between someone who is black, and someone who is a nigger. I have had a drive-by experience similar to what **monstro** described above. I have had it directed at me by someone who noticed me as she was getting off of a bus. I have had it directed at me while walking through Golden Gate Park. There are other examples. I don’t know what stereotype I would have been exhibiting in any of these cases. For racists, it seems to me that stereotypes embodied by the word “nigger” would be the same stereotypes embodied by being black. Yes, there are exceptions where a racist may feel that a black person isn’t “acting black” and might therefore not warrant the “nigger” label. But these are the exceptions for the racist, not the rule. The default is that being black equals being a nigger, both in name and in action. I am sincerely unable to understand the “you of all people” part of your post. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/283 "2017-07-13T16:47:24Z")
That word is not part of my vocabulary, internal or external. Likewise ethnic or sexual slurs about anyone else. It isn’t me in my head going ‘oh be careful, don’t go there!’ Nor is it a conscious choice I made not to use them. It simply isn’t part of my character any more than casual theft or being a bully. And that’s where I laugh at terms like ‘virtue signalling’. I’m not showing off or saying I’m better than you, I’m genuinely surprised that it is part of some people’s brains and they think everyone is like that, because quite clearly, some of us are not. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/284 "2017-07-13T16:47:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If there are stereotypes/behaviors associated with this slur (and I’m sure some people see it this way in their own heads, a sentiment I feel perfectly comfortable calling racist and harmful), by far the greatest is being black. Anything, culturally and societally, that is thought of as “more black” would fit better – if someone says “n\*\*\*\*\*s do XYZ”, XYZ almost certainly is considered at large to be “blacker” behavior, whether it’s positive or negative. It’s about “blackness”, and the cultural/societal traits that have been assigned to “blackness”. An ugly slang/slur I grew up hearing (not directed at me personally) was “wigger”, a white person who behaves in ways that society has deemed are stereotypically black (whether it be manner of dress, speaking, music choice, etc.). > > Thus, the slur is about blackness and anything associated (due to cultural/societal biases and bigotries) with blackness. I’ll note something that should be obvious – concepts like “blackness” and “whiteness” are entirely constructed by society and culture and can and do change quite frequently. I agree entirely with this. There are negative stereotypes associated with black people. My contention is that someone who fits, or who is perceived to fit, those stereotypes is more likely, when encountering racists, to be thought of, or called, a “nigger” than someone who doesn’t. Again, not an absolute, just a more likely. And again, it’s not right or acceptable that that might happen, but it is at some level predictable. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/285 "2017-07-13T16:53:45Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > For racists, it seems to me that stereotypes embodied by the word “nigger” would be the same stereotypes embodied by being black. Yes, there are exceptions where a racist may feel that a black person isn’t “acting black” and might therefore not warrant the “nigger” label. But these are the exceptions for the racist, not the rule. The default is that being black equals being a nigger, both in name and in action. ISTM that by saying “for racists” you’re making your argument somewhat circular. No doubt, there are some racists who for whom the term has the meaning you ascribe. This is because such people tend to assume that all blacks have these negative traits, such that “being black” and having these traits are synonymous. And such people will also tend to be the type of people who call people such terms while passing them in the park or the like. But the question WRT the subject of this thread is whether there are also other people, with a different mindset than the people who yelled at you in the park, for whom the term has a different connotation. You can’t make a conclusion about what these people think by pointing to how the term is used by virulent racists, since the use in that manner by virulent racists is itself a product of their virulent racism. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/286 "2017-07-13T16:57:19Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I agree entirely with this. There are negative stereotypes associated with black people. My contention is that someone who fits, or who is perceived to fit, those stereotypes is more likely, when encountering racists, to be thought of, or called, a “nigger” than someone who doesn’t. Again, not an absolute, just a more likely. And again, it’s not right or acceptable that that might happen, but it is at some level predictable. Let’s say for a moment that you’re right (I don’t think you are, but I’ll agree for the moment). Now what? What does this distinction mean? In what way should this influence how we feel about the word? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/287 "2017-07-13T16:58:34Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I agree entirely with this. There are negative stereotypes associated with black people. My contention is that someone who fits, or who is perceived to fit, those stereotypes is more likely, when encountering racists, to be thought of, or called, a “nigger” than someone who doesn’t. Again, not an absolute, just a more likely. And again, it’s not right or acceptable that that might happen, but it is at some level predictable. Relevant question here is suppose someone fits a stereotype of black people which is not negative (e.g. they like watermelon and fried foods). Is this person more likely to be called a “nigger”? I would guess the answer is “yes” but only for a (more racist) subset of the population. There is a bigger subset of the population which would be more likely to use the term for those with negative stereotypes but not for those with neutral (or positive) ones. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/288 "2017-07-13T17:01:03Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I agree entirely with this. There are negative stereotypes associated with black people. My contention is that someone who fits, or who is perceived to fit, those stereotypes is more likely, when encountering racists, to be thought of, or called, a “nigger” than someone who doesn’t. Again, not an absolute, just a more likely. And again, it’s not right or acceptable that that might happen, but it is at some level predictable. Those stereotypes frequently change – think of the most negatively stereotypical black person today, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, and 150 years ago. Those are all very, very different (fictional) people – different appearances, different behaviors, etc. What doesn’t change is that the slur is about _blackness_. As blackness changes (i.e. the behaviors and characteristics that society and culture assign to “blackness”), so does any behavior or characteristics (aside from being black) that might happen to correlate with being called by that racial slur. And thus I think it’s entirely reasonable to conclude that the slur is about race (and society/culture’s beliefs on race) and not any other characteristics, except for those that society has already assigned as being associated (usually negatively) with the race. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/289 "2017-07-13T17:05:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But the question WRT the subject of this thread is whether there are also other people, with a different mindset than the people who yelled at you in the park, for whom the term has a different connotation. You can’t make a conclusion about what these people think by pointing to how the term is used by virulent racists, since the use in that manner by virulent racists is itself a product of their virulent racism. I am probably misunderstanding your point, but I don’t think we’re talking about people with a different mindset. I’m not seeing a qualitative difference. What I’m seeing with people like the subject of this thread is that there are simply a larger number of exceptions to the rule for them. I don’t think it changes the idea that “nigger” = “standard black” for your second group. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/290 "2017-07-13T17:14:29Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I am probably misunderstanding your point, but I don’t think we’re talking about people with a different mindset. I’m not seeing a qualitative difference. What I’m seeing with people like the subject of this thread is that there are simply a larger number of exceptions to the rule for them. I don’t think it changes the idea that “nigger” = “standard black” for your second group. But why do you think that? Once you grant that these people assume a larger number of exceptions, then why would you think they must necessarily think of “nigger” as “standard black”? Do you agree that Chris Rock was not using “nigger” to mean “standard black” in his routine? On what basis would you conclude that he’s the only guy who thinks of the term as he did and anyone else who thinks of the term must mean “standard black”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/291 "2017-07-13T17:21:47Z")
Rock was doing a comedy routine. Comedy routines can be a mixture of deliberate falsehoods, outrageousness, snippets of truth, and much more. They’re meant to get laughs. They’re not, or shouldn’t be, the basis of opinions about race and racism. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/292 "2017-07-13T17:26:44Z")
Comedy routines draw on cultural themes that are understood by the audience. If CR used a term in a completely unconventional way, it wouldn’t have been understood by the audience or been funny. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/293 "2017-07-13T17:33:36Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Comedy routines draw on cultural themes that are understood by the audience. If CR used a term in a completely unconventional way, it wouldn’t have been understood by the audience or been funny. “Who’s on First” as a comedy bit would seem include using terms in a completely unconventional way. People seem to get that, and find it funny. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/294 "2017-07-13T17:35:55Z")
I don’t think your first sentence is correct. Using a word as a proper noun is not unconventional at all, and is a concept that everyone has encountered and anyone can relate to. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/295 "2017-07-13T17:39:03Z")
And your third baseman and shortstop? If there is nothing unconventional about the usage of the words, then whence comes the questioner’s confusion? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/296 "2017-07-13T17:40:26Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > And your third baseman and shortstop? I don’t know and I don’t give a darn. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/297 "2017-07-13T17:41:09Z")
Man, I didn’t just walk, there’s an imprint on the wall from where I ran into that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/298 "2017-07-13T17:44:04Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > And your third baseman and shortstop? It got a bit stretched by that point, but the joke was clear by then. That’s why they started with the easy ones and got progressively more ridiculous as they went along. It wouldn’t have worked in reverse, and for this exact reason. > [@](#): > > If there is nothing unconventional about the usage of the words, then whence comes the questioner’s confusion? The audience is familiar with both the actual meaning of those words as common nouns and the notion of words having no meaning at all when used as proper nouns. So both usages are familiar. The humor is in not knowing which one is meant in a given instance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/299 "2017-07-13T17:54:22Z")
It’s hard even to tell what this thread is about anymore. If you call black people “niggers”, you’re racist. It doesn’t matter if you call all black people that, or some subset of black people that. Race is a social construct anyway, and all you did was draw a different construct for a different race that you call “niggers” instead of “black”. All the rest of this nonsense about comedy routines and stereotypes are simply beside the point. If anyone thinks it’s OK to take the position **Annie-Xmas** does, that it’s OK to think of certain black people as “niggers”, raise your hand and join the ranks. If you don’t think it’s OK, quit trying to make it sound like it is. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/300 "2017-07-13T17:55:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Comedy routines draw on cultural themes that are understood by the audience. If CR used a term in a completely unconventional way, it wouldn’t have been understood by the audience or been funny. The humor in the Rock routine pretty clearly derives precisely from his abnormal use of the term. It’s obvious even from reading the text: > [@](#): > > Now we’ve got a lot of things, a lot of racism in the world right now, Who’s more racist? Black people or white people? Black people, you know why? > > Because we hate black people too! Everything white people don’t like about black people, black people REALLY don’t like about black people. There’s some shit going on with black people right now. There’s a civil war going on with black people, and there’s two sides, there’s black people and there’s niggas. The niggas have got to go. Do you think Chris Rock really believes that black people are more racist against black people than white people? If so, then I think you’re not really understanding the bit, which is playing with respectability politics, stereotypes, and race in unconventional ways that are precisely what made it funny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000.md?page=16)