# Annie-Xmas, I can think of a word that fits **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000 "2017-07-11T14:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/341 "2017-07-14T01:37:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And I maintain that it may convey something to you, and you and the speaker may share that meaning, but what I hear is “I am a racist creep. I know 5 black people. One of them really pisses me off.” I hear “I know five black people. Four of them are so exceptional that I forget they’re black. But that other one is true to form.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/342 "2017-07-14T07:05:42Z")
For fuck’s sake, don’t call Black People niggers. Are we really debating this? Does this really need a seven page thread? Have I stumbled into Stormfr\*nt by mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/343 "2017-07-14T11:01:43Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > For fuck’s sake, don’t call Black People niggers. Are we really debating this? Does this really need a seven page thread? Have I stumbled into Stormfr\*nt by mistake? Have you read the thread? There’s been surprisingly little acceptance of calling all black people niggers, but a surprising amount of claiming it’s ok to call some black people niggers. I’m not sure why, but it seems to be Chris Rock’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/344 "2017-07-14T13:02:16Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Have you read the thread? There’s been surprisingly little acceptance of calling all black people niggers, but a surprising amount of claiming it’s ok to call some black people niggers. Can you direct me to some posts in which people have claimed “it’s ok to call some black people niggers”? I don’t recall any and am skeptical as to whether anyone at all has claimed this. ISTM that confusion over things like this, both deliberate and genuine, is the root of the trouble with threads like this one. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/345 "2017-07-14T13:29:42Z")
> [@Teuton](#): > > Have you read the thread? There’s been surprisingly little acceptance of calling all black people niggers, but a surprising amount of claiming it’s > ok to call some black people niggers. I’m not sure why, but it seems to be Chris Rock’s fault. Aside from **Annie’s** original comment upon which this thread is based, I don’t know that anyone is saying it’s _ok_ to call anyone “nigger”. As **MaxTheVool** has been trying to say, as _hateful_, _vile_ and _wrong_ as it is, it does supply meaning, and not just “about the speaker”. Right or wrong, I think most people, at least in the rare instances I actually hear someone say it, really mean something like “ghetto”. [Quote=John Mace] 1. Two unemployed black people, each with children from previous marriages. There are constantly people showing up at their house in the middle of the night and she thinks they might be drug dealers. They’re constantly complaining about how they’re trying to get more money out of the government, and playing loud profanity-laced-rap-music, and she really kind of hates them. 2. Two unemployed white people, each with children from previous marriages. There are constantly people showing up at their house in the middle of the night and she thinks they might be drug dealers. They’re constantly complaining about how they’re trying to get more money out of the government, and playing loud profanity-laced-rap-music, and she really kind of hates them. Notice any difference between the two couples? [/QUOTE] I see what you’re getting at and I think anyone who is the type to incorporate race into the insult would call the second couple “white trash”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/346 "2017-07-14T13:52:31Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can you direct me to some posts in which people have claimed “it’s ok to call some black people niggers”? I don’t recall any and am skeptical as to whether anyone at all has claimed this. Apparently there is no way to distinguish thinking ‘that person fulfills the worst stereotypes that racists can come up with’ from putting a sign on your front lawn saying ‘Obama is a nigger’. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/347 "2017-07-14T14:03:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Apparently there is no way to distinguish thinking ‘that person fulfills the worst stereotypes that racists can come up with’ from putting a sign on your front lawn saying ‘Obama is a nigger’. > > Regards, > Shodan I think it’s more like “that person fulfills the worst stereotypes that racists can come up with and therefore it’s okay to think of them as a nigger” – and IMO, the difference between “one should never think of anyone as niggers or any other racial/ethnic slur” and “that person fulfills the worst stereotypes that racists can come up with and therefore it’s okay to think of them as a nigger” is utterly huge, and much, much bigger than the difference between the latter and “it’s okay to think of any black people I don’t like or am angry at as niggers” which seem pretty damn close to me. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/348 "2017-07-14T14:26:59Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > Aside from **Annie’s** original comment upon which this thread is based, I don’t know that anyone is saying it’s _ok_ to call anyone “nigger”. As **MaxTheVool** has been trying to say, as _hateful_, _vile_ and _wrong_ as it is, it does supply meaning, and not just “about the speaker”. Right or wrong, I think most people, at least in the rare instances I actually hear someone say it, really mean something like “ghetto”. I disagree. But again, say that you just convinced me. What is the relevance? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/349 "2017-07-14T14:34:45Z")
The relevance is in whether or not you can infer that the thinker is someone who has negative thoughts about all black people. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/350 "2017-07-14T14:37:12Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The relevance is in whether or not you can infer that the thinker is someone who has negative thoughts about all black people. Anyone who goes to using n\*gger in _any_ capacity (even if they think the person they are directing it somehow matches a stereotype and/or just represents a subset of black people) likely carries a predisposition to think less of black people in general. Decent people do not think/call any black person that word. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/351 "2017-07-14T14:41:30Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I disagree. But again, say that you just convinced me. What is the relevance? Simply that some people _do_ make a distinction and while the use of a racial slur may signal to you (the general "you’ in the context of this thread) certain things about the speaker, sometimes it’s just a descriptor. I’m not saying by any means that dragging one’s race into an argument or insult is right; just that’s it’s unfortunate, ugly but easy shorthand to some people. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/352 "2017-07-14T14:46:19Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Anyone who goes to using n\*gger in _any_ capacity (even if they think the person they are directing it somehow matches a stereotype and/or just represents a subset of black people) likely carries a predisposition to think less of black people in general. You’re entitled to your opinion that such a person “likely carries a predisposition”. But that’s at best a much more tenuous judgment than if the word had no connotations which distinguished by anything other than skin color. Which is exactly why people have been arguing this issue in this thread. Because if you want to castigate all such thinkers as racists it’s much easier if you can simply deny that the word has any connotations other than color than would be the case if you accepted that and thus had to fall back on much shakier claims that such people “likely carr[y] a predisposition” ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/353 "2017-07-14T14:50:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re entitled to your opinion that such a person “likely carries a predisposition”. But that’s at best a much more tenuous judgment than if the word had no connotations which distinguished by anything other than skin color. > > Which is exactly why people have been arguing this issue in this thread. Because if you want to castigate all such thinkers as racists it’s much easier if you can simply deny that the word has any connotations other than color than would be the case if you accepted that and thus had to fall back on much shakier claims that such people “likely carr[y] a predisposition” The user may justify or explain its use because of “additional reasons” but as been shown time and time again, simply being black is necessary and sufficient to be called it. Everything else is just hand waving. Nigger is a racial slur used _against black people_. If some of the black people being slurred are doing things that the _user_ of the word feels justifies/explains their choice of words, that’s on them. The fact that on rare occasions a white person gets called it, well, that’s the exception that proves the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/354 "2017-07-14T14:58:26Z")
You’re just repeating an argument that has been made and refuted many times in this thread. I don’t think I’m getting back on that merry-go-round at this point. The specific question asked at this point in the thread is not whether this argument is correct or not, but rather what’s the relevance of the entire issue altogether. I addressed that question. Now you’re just retreating to a reiteration of why you’re correct about that underlying issue. OK. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/355 "2017-07-14T15:12:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The specific question asked at this point in the thread is not whether this argument is correct or not, but rather what’s the relevance of the entire issue altogether. I addressed that question. You stated above that “the subject of this thread is whether there are also other people [who use the term “nigger”] with a different mindset than the people” who believe that all blacks are inferior. I don’t believe anyone has put forth any evidence that would suggest that’s true. All that has been shown is that there are some users of the term who believe certain blacks are better than other blacks. There is no evidence that people who use the term believe some blacks are equal to them. The relevance is that if a person is employing a racial slur against someone of another race, it demonstrates that the person has a negative view of that race. I am not seeing anything that anyone has said to refute that. Evidence of differences between individuals of the target race is not evidence that the slur-utterer doesn’t see _all_ individuals of the target race as lower-tier humans compared to themself. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/356 "2017-07-14T15:31:24Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > Aside from **Annie’s** original comment upon which this thread is based, I don’t know that anyone is saying it’s _ok_ to call anyone “nigger”. Well, we do have: > [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, I share Chris Rock’s opinion that there is, or can be, a difference between being a nigger and being a black person. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/357 "2017-07-14T15:32:37Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > You stated above that “the subject of this thread is whether there are also other people [who use the term “nigger”] with a different mindset than the people” who believe that all blacks are inferior. I don’t believe anyone has put forth any evidence that would suggest that’s true. All that has been shown is that there are some users of the term who believe certain blacks are better than other blacks. There is no evidence that people who use the term believe some blacks are equal to them. > > The relevance is that if a person is employing a racial slur against someone of another race, it demonstrates that the person has a negative view of that race. I am not seeing anything that anyone has said to refute that. Evidence of differences between individuals of the target race is not evidence that the slur-utterer doesn’t see _all_ individuals of the target race as lower-tier humans compared to themself. That’s all fine. But there’s no reason the shoe has to be on the other foot here. This - what’s going on in people’s hearts and minds - is not something that really lends itself to evidence, especially of the type you can post on a MB. Ultimately it’s a judgment call, based on each person’s experience with other people’s attitudes, ways of thinking, and use of language. So saying “_there is no evidence that people who use the term believe some blacks are equal to them_” is completely inconclusive. So it remains relevant. To the extent that you accept that there is no connotation of “nigger” other than “black”, then the notion that people like the subject of this thread must necessarily have negative views of all black people becomes that much more compelling. To the extent that you don’t accept that premise, then it’s much less compelling. Hence the dispute over this point in this thread, and the relevance. So yes, you can say that “yeah, it may have a more specific connotation to some people but such people are probably racists anyway”, as ITD is saying. But it’s not as compelling as if it didn’t have that more specific connotation, which is why that point is relevant here. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/358 "2017-07-14T15:35:16Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > You stated above that “the subject of this thread is whether there are also other people [who use the term “nigger”] with a different mindset than the people” who believe that all blacks are inferior. **I don’t believe anyone has put forth any evidence that would suggest that’s true.** > > What kind of evidence would that be? For that matter, what evidence have you shown that it’s not? > > [QUOTE=Asimovian] > All that has been shown is that there are some users of the term who believe certain blacks are better than other blacks. There is no evidence that people who use the term believe some blacks are equal to them. Again, I don’t know what kind of evidence you think there exists to prove what’s in another’s mind. [QUOTE=Asimovian] The relevance is that if a person is employing a racial slur against someone of another race, it demonstrates that the person has a negative view of that race. I am not seeing anything that anyone has said to refute that. **Evidence of differences between individuals of the target race is not evidence that the slur-utterer doesn’t see _all_ individuals of the target race as lower-tier humans compared to themself.** [/QUOTE] Nor is it evidence that they do. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/359 "2017-07-14T15:44:30Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Interesting thought. I will say that these two people are the only ones I ever think that word about, but maybe I am using it incorrectly. And I’m sure we’ve all heard inappropriate thoughts about people acting like stereotypes in our life. > > Remember, I grew up in a time and place (New England in the 1950’s - 1960’s) where that word, while not considered “nice” was used.\*\* Long before people vs. Simpson.\*\* Funny how this non sequiterish reference to OJ is totally unsurprising from this poster. I can’t even make out what wackadoodle idiocy is being hinted at here. That the trial somehow represented some watershed moment in the history of “nigger” usage, whereby the term came to be only associated with the most niggerish of the niggers? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000/360 "2017-07-14T15:53:33Z")
I don’t know either. Though I suspect it has something to do with the Fuhrman tapes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annie-xmas-i-can-think-of-a-word-that-fits/791000.md?page=19)