# Annihiliationism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591 "2011-08-22T00:48:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/41 "2011-08-22T15:42:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where did he(or anyone else in this thread) do this? From here: [QUOTE=Kobal2] mounting evidence points to there not being any “soul” [/QUOTE] Where did Kobal2 find out about this evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/42 "2011-08-22T15:47:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Your argument is perfectly accommodated by a belief systems that give us, as creatures of the flesh, the ability to do the same things as spiritual being, but we use the physical world to do so. Which assumes the existence of “spiritual beings”, and there being a “spiritual world” where they can do whatever it is they do without bleeping on the material radar. This has not been demonstrated so far, to me or anyone else. > [@](#): > > This is a strawman argument. > > Throughout time and ongoing today God, angels and the like are coming to their children (us) in person and helping us along. They do not chose to us your preferred method of contact - your assumption that if they exist you would have hard evidence is in error. They are living very highly intelligent beings and they are in control, not us. > Your basic argument is with people who have not known God or the angels, but taking the word of others who follow them, but you are claiming your point against those who know God. That is quite a trick you pulled there. First you accuse me of strawman-ing your position, then you opt to play the role of that supposed strawman your own self. It’s quite a spectacular way of shooting yourself in the foot, there. Points awarded for style, if not for substance. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/43 "2011-08-22T15:47:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I lack a belief that there is a guy named Tom Fiskaa trekking across Antarctica at this moment. That is different then saying that I do not belief that there is a guy named Tom Fiskaa trekking across Antarctica. > > Atheism is in the corner of already decided. Once you have accepted atheism (or Theism) you have accepted a belief that you will use to help define your world. The word Atheism comes from ‘no god’. If I were to ask you if Spiderman exists, what would you say? Lack of belief is what defines atheism. It’s the default state of humanity, and not an affirmative belief. Just as you’d say, “Of course there is no Spiderman.” because there is no evidence for him really existing, atheists would say something similar about the God of the Abrahamic religions. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/44 "2011-08-22T15:49:08Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Annihilationism is the belief that in the afterlife non-Christians’ souls are simply destroyed rather than punished in Hell forever. Do you think the idea is more tolerable-after all for atheists its no worse than what you’ve expected. I’m not an atheist because I think hell is a terrible idea. I’m an atheist because there is no evidence for God existing. Since there is no evidence, why should I care what nonsense gullible people force themselves to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/45 "2011-08-22T15:54:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Where did Kobal2 find out about this evidence? I drank a fifth of vodka. Then I got really mad, then I got sad, then I dropped like a log, snored a lot and forgot all about it. IOW, ingestion of a compound modified the way my meat works, which in turn tweaked the way my mind and thoughts worked. My spirit got touched by spirits (HA ! I’ll be here all week, I’m afraid). If my ego, or soul, or whatever you opt to call it was independent from flesh, that would not happen, would it ? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/46 "2011-08-22T15:59:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I lack a belief that there is a guy named Tom Fiskaa trekking across Antarctica at this moment. That is different then saying that I do not belief that there is a guy named Tom Fiskaa trekking across Antarctica. So by your logic, if someone says “I lack a belief in God,” that’s different than saying “I do not believe that there is a God,” right? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/47 "2011-08-22T16:06:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So by your logic, if someone says “I lack a belief in God,” that’s different than saying “I do not believe that there is a God,” right? Yes. You can think of it as the wiring of the mind, the lack of belief does not have a filter on the God issue, the Atheist has the filter of No God, the Theist has a filter that there is God. Both will use that filter to define their world. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/48 "2011-08-22T16:07:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes. > > You can think of it as the wiring of the mind, the lack of belief does not have a filter on the God issue, the Atheist has the filter of No God, the Theist has a filter that there is God. Even though the atheist lacks a belief in God. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/49 "2011-08-22T16:13:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes. > > You can think of it as the wiring of the mind, the lack of belief does not have a filter on the God issue, the Atheist has the filter of No God, the Theist has a filter that there is God. Both will use that filter to define their world. Everyone on Earth is an atheist until they are indoctrinated into some religion. If you grew up in India, you’d probably be a Hindu. Atheism isn’t a filter, it’s the natural state of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/50 "2011-08-22T16:24:20Z")
Presumably JudeoChristians also have a “No Zeus” filter, and a “No Thor” filter and a “No Vishnu” filter, and filters for every other deity, to explain why they believe those gods don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/51 "2011-08-22T16:31:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Even though the atheist lacks a belief in God. There is a belief, the multiple choice questing has been filled in: Is there a God: a Yes ( ) b No (X) c I don’t know ( ) From the above you have the possible answers: a = Theist b = atheist c = agnostic and if the person didn’t get the question then it does not yet exist for them - I believe this is where you are trying to define Atheism, but I don’t see how it could fit here. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/52 "2011-08-22T16:34:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There is a belief, the multiple choice questing has been filled in: > > Is there a God: > a Yes ( ) > b No (X) > c I don’t know ( ) > > From the above you have the possible answers: > a = Theist > b = atheist > c = agnostic > and if the person didn’t get the question then it does not yet exist for them - I believe this is where you are trying to define Atheism, but I don’t see how it could fit here. Actually no one knows if there is a God or not. So by your quiz there everyone should be an agnostic. Not that that’s what agnostic actually means, mind you. Again, you don’t believe in Spiderman because there is no evidence for him. That doesn’t mean you have an affirmative belief in No-Spiderman. It means that you need evidence to accept something so silly. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/53 "2011-08-22T16:45:47Z")
As a Christian, I have little problem with Annihilationism. The Hebrew Scriptures certainly seem to support it. Only three passages in the New Testament seem to support never-ending torment as opposed to others which could be seen as annihilationist & those three passages are still ambiguous. I do think there would be a Resurrection & Judgement, tho- to let unbelievers & outright rebels know they didn’t get away with a thing, that they could have had Eternal Joy & threw that chance away. Of course, I do believe that future opportunity could be allowed those who would benefit from it. I mostly lean to the Eastern Orthodox version- in the words of Father Theodore Hopko, those who will persist in rebellion against God-Jesus will dwell in His Love and Grace for ages of ages, tormented by His Presence as long as they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/54 "2011-08-22T16:51:04Z")
Wouldn’t Eternal Joy (indeed, Eternal Anything) start to wear thin after a while? Even if it takes a million years before you start getting tired of it (and I’d be surprised if most people could handle it for more than a week), you’ve still got _eternity_ more to go. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/55 "2011-08-22T16:54:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Wouldn’t Eternal Joy (indeed, Eternal Anything) start to wear thin after a while? Even if it takes a million years before you start getting tired of it (and I’d be surprised if most people could handle it for more than a week), you’ve still got _eternity_ more to go. But you aren’t factoring in that _God is Magic_. He makes it so you still love it. Because, magic. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/56 "2011-08-22T16:59:54Z")
Well, if such a God wants me to be a devout loving worshipful believer, he could rewire my brain accordingly. In fact, what’s stopping him from doing so either now, or upon my death or (given the scope of this discussion) after my death? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/57 "2011-08-22T17:04:37Z")
“I love those wonderful X-1 robots!” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/58 "2011-08-22T17:08:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There is a belief, the multiple choice questing has been filled in: > > Is there a God: > a Yes ( ) > b No (X) > c I don’t know ( ) But you’ve been saying there’s a difference between “I lack a belief that X” and “I do not believe X”. Or, as you put it: > [@](#): > > I lack a belief that there is a guy named Tom Fiskaa trekking across Antarctica at this moment. **That is different then saying** that I do not belief that there is a guy named Tom Fiskaa trekking across Antarctica. Bolding mine. If, as _ **you** _ say, there’s a difference with regard to lacking a belief in Tom Fiskaa – and a difference, as you say, with regard to lacking a belief in God – then we need to structure your multiple-choice question to reflect that difference. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/59 "2011-08-22T17:34:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > then we need to structure your multiple-choice question to reflect that difference. Please post the multiple choice question to that structure. In the way I structured it, the ‘not yet have received the question therefor no answer’ would be lack of belief, while answering ‘no’ would be disbelief. The former would indicate a open learning state of the mind, the latter would indicated a preconception that is used to define the world. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591/60 "2011-08-22T17:39:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Please post the multiple choice question to that structure. First, I’d like to see your answer to the following: Do you believe Tom Fiskaa is presently trekking across Antarctica? a) I do believe that Tom Fiskaa is presently trekking across Antarctica. b) I lack that belief. c) I do not believe that Tom Fiskaa is presently trekking across Antarctica. Do you answer B or C or both or neither? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annihiliationism/593591.md?page=4)