# Annoying messianic neighbor **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 22, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046 "2007-03-22T17:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/61 "2007-03-23T21:00:02Z")
[QUOTE=guppy] People say that Catholics aren’t Christians? Like who? [/QUOTE] A specific (and prominent) person is Bob Jones III, recent president of Bob Jones University in South Carolina. Jones has referred to Catholicism as “the religion of the anti-Christ and a Satanic system” and called Mormonism and Catholicism "cults which call themselves Christian."[Bob Jones III - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_III) He also said that liberals despise Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/62 "2007-03-23T21:02:06Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Its been a long time since I cracked open a prayer book, but I still remember the Shma, in Hebrew. The Lord is our God, the Lord is One. Notning about a trinity in there, nothing about Jesus being God. [/QUOTE] The same passage is recited in Lutheran churches. Christ is viewed as transcendant, being one with God from the beginning. They are not separate Gods. (See John 1.) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/63 "2007-03-23T21:05:46Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Is there any belief in your mind which can be categorically called “non-Jewish?” [/QUOTE] Sure. Any of them. My only point is that what you call someone doesn’t trump what they call themselves. There is controversy because there is disagreement. All I’m asking (and all I’ve ever asked from you in Great Debates) is that you qualify the things you say with true qualifiers. There’s a difference between “No Jew can accept Christ” and “Most Jewish scholars do not recognize Messianic Jews as Jews.” Look at what you posted: **Messianic Judaism is a strain of evangelical Christianity. It’s not part of Judaism at all, it’s a tactic for converting Jews to Christianity.** No qualifiers. No references. Nothing but categorical declarations. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/64 "2007-03-23T21:20:45Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] It’s not religious. That’s the problem you alleged to have with my analogy. It apparently does not bother you that vegetarianism is likewise not a religion. Furthermore, it strikes me that defining Jews as “those people who reject Christ” flirts dangerously close to even more insidious definitions. [/QUOTE] He’s not doing that. I also assure you that Jesus is not as important to everyone as he seems to be to you. In all the years I went to Hebrew School and to shul every Saturday, Jesus did not come up - neither did any of the other people who claimed they were the Messiah and came to a bad end. I don’t think I can ever get across to you how totally irrelevant Jesus was and is to me. That is not saying anyone is right and anyone is wrong, but just a statement of personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/65 "2007-03-23T21:21:49Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] It’s not religious. That’s the problem you alleged to have with my analogy. It apparently does not bother you that vegetarianism is likewise not a religion. Furthermore, it strikes me that defining Jews as “those people who reject Christ” flirts dangerously close to even more insidious definitions. [/quote] The problem that I had with your analogy it was not a _contradiction_. Respecting Jesus as a secular figure does not contradict atheism. Eating meat does contradict vegetarianism, and wiorshipping Jesus does contradict Jewish theology. > [@](#): > > Is there a living soul for whom you do not speak? As I told Zev, what you choose to call someone does not trump what they choose to call themselves. Words have definitions. Calling yourself an umbrella does not make you an umbrella and calling yourself a Jew does not make you Jewish. > [@](#): > > Okay, how about a rabbit from the [Observant Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Association](http://www.omjra.org/Faith.html)? They say they are not Christians, but conservative observant Jews. Why should what you say trump what they say? He’s not a Jewish rabbi. He’s a christian minister. > [@](#): > > I just linked to you religious Jews who disagree with you. No, you linked to religious Christians who are factually wrong. > [@](#): > > Contrary to the (rather cubist) portrait you’re painting, Messianic Judaism didn’t just pop up yesterday from Baptist churches. [Leopold Cohn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Cohn_(Messianic_rabbi)), an orthodox rabbit from Hungary, was one. I didn’t say Messianics were started by Baptists, **Lib** , I said Jews for Jesus was. They are two different groups, and Leopold Cohn stopped being an orthodox Rabbi as soon as he converted to Christianity. > [@](#): > > Red herring. What I said is that there is no _single_ Jewish theology. I listed quite many that are particular to modern Amerca. There have been many others throughout history. And you are wrong. There IS a single essential Jewish theology which is common to every denomination you mentioned. The understanding of what God is and is not is exactly the same. There is no disagreement in Judaism about whether Jesus could have been God. Full stop. > [@](#): > > Anyway, what you’re discussing is only a tangent of the point I originally made. All these things are debatable, as we are clearly here debating them. I realize you may think you’re having a monologue and that you disagree with everything I say, but that does not make my posts disappear. You can’t say that there is no controversy by plugging up your ears and claiming that no one thinks differently from you. The etiquette question of the OP may have a factual answer, but I doubt it. This thread doesn’t belong in this forum, and didn’t from its beginning. I’m here to fight ignorance. I am posting factually correct information. You have a fundmental misunderstanding of the conflict between Jews and Messianics. If you’re not willing to take the correction, that’s no skin off my nose, but I’m posting them anyway for the record and for anyone else who may be interested in the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/66 "2007-03-23T21:28:09Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Sure. Any of them. My only point is that what you call someone doesn’t trump what they call themselves. [/quote] Try to frame it as what “I call them” is baloney. They either fit a definition (not MY definition, THE definition) or they don’t. Words don’t change meanings by self-identification. > [@](#): > > There is controversy because there is disagreement. All I’m asking (and all I’ve ever asked from you in Great Debates) is that you qualify the things you say with true qualifiers. There’s a difference between “No Jew can accept Christ” and “Most Jewish scholars do not recognize Messianic Jews as Jews.” > > Look at what you posted: > > **Messianic Judaism is a strain of evangelical Christianity. It’s not part of Judaism at all, it’s a tactic for converting Jews to Christianity.** > > No qualifiers. No references. Nothing but categorical declarations. All that stuff is pure, objective fact, not opinion. There isn’t any disagreement or controversy within Judaism. It’s not “most Jewish scholars” who say that the worship of Christ (or any other Messiah) is incompatible with religious Judaism, it’s ALL Jewish denominations, without exception, and it’s the state of Israel itself. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/67 "2007-03-23T23:05:47Z")
I’m watching this with great interest. The OP asks how to handle a pushy neigher so as not to have an angry neighbor and it turns into a rather heated debate on the nature of Judaism, Messaianic Jews and on and on. Do you suppose if religion didn’t exist peace would break out? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/68 "2007-03-23T23:36:35Z")
The OP is kinda looking for informed opinions, and since there is NO one factual answer here, let’s move this to IMHO. **samclem** GQ moderator ---
**Author:** ![Strain\_of\_Thought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3be4f8/32.png) [@Strain\_of\_Thought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strain_of_Thought)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/69 "2007-03-24T08:48:10Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] I’m watching this with great interest. The OP asks how to handle a pushy neigher so as not to have an angry neighbor and it turns into a rather heated debate on the nature of Judaism, Messaianic Jews and on and on. [/QUOTE] From the first response to the OP: [QUOTE=Strain of Thought] When it comes to competing religious beliefs, etiquette is about as relevant as evidence. [/QUOTE] The saddest thing about the internet is how often that it is just a snake eating its own tail. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/70 "2007-03-24T09:23:34Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Do you suppose if religion didn’t exist peace would break out? [/QUOTE] Oh sure, I mean nothing bad ever happened in the Soviet Union, China, or Cambodia. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/71 "2007-03-24T21:33:43Z")
**Liberal** , how do you reconcile your stance in this thread with your stance in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=413771)? Particularly [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8392555&postcount=16). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/72 "2007-03-24T22:52:01Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] **Liberal** , how do you reconcile your stance in this thread with your stance in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=413771)? Particularly [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8392555&postcount=16). [/QUOTE] Let me reconcile it for you: _Take it elsewhere._ No more hijacking this thread, o.k.? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/73 "2007-03-24T22:56:24Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Let me reconcile it for you: _Take it elsewhere._ No more hijacking this thread, o.k.? [/QUOTE] OK, but every single post on this page is devoted to the “Are messianic Jews Christians” hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/74 "2007-03-24T23:08:06Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] OK, but every single post on this page is devoted to the “Are messianic Jews Christians” hijack. [/QUOTE] So why don’t y’all start a new thread in Great Debates titled maybe, “Are Messianic Jews Christians?”, so the others who know how to stay on topic can do so? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/75 "2007-03-25T01:45:18Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] They have a very tenuous grip on theology, about like mine. [/QUOTE] Depends upon the theology. Housecats have no trouble with the “I am God.” idea. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2007, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046/76 "2007-03-25T02:04:43Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Depends upon the theology. Housecats have no trouble with the “I am God.” idea. [/QUOTE] And they didn’t do too badly in Egypt. A timely point, what with Passover coming up. 🙂 And “Messianic Jews” are not Jews, they are Christians, by the definition of Christians as someone who believes Jesus to be divine. The Messiah will bring peace on earth, and rebuild the Temple. Last time I checked that had not happened 2,000 years ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/annoying-messianic-neighbor/397046.md?page=3)