# Another 17 U.S. soldiers have lost their lives today **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068 "2003-11-03T01:47:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/41 "2003-11-03T18:43:17Z")
Well I hope the lesson is well learned… if a 250 million nation with as much power as the USA can’t control a 25 million very poor country like Iraq… then forceful tactics won’t work ever. Either you work within a larger scheme and lawful means… or only interfere when called upon to do so. Military means only go so far if your cause isn’t clear and justified. I am sorry for US and Iraqi useless deaths to further agendas… and even worse that many are happy about the incident instead of sad… much due to US arrogance. Those soldiers are only pawns in a sick game. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/42 "2003-11-03T19:01:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Okay. What’s your plan? When do you want them all to come home? \*\* No plan, just putting that out there. Optimally I would like them to come home as soon as the finish the job they had forced upon them. For starters we can throw some other countries a few bones so they send some troops our way, although I wouldn’t blame them if they told us to fuck off. I would pull troops out of Germany and South Korea too, but this has nothing to do with the argument. I think it’s high time we became a bit more isolationist and worked on our own problems. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/43 "2003-11-03T19:05:22Z")
I don’t watch it myself, but I heard PBS(?) still has a policy of having small memorial tributes to all US fatalities in Iraq, including names and pictures, when available. Oddly enough, none of the other networks who were so eager to “support our troops” during the war have bothered to continue their support. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/44 "2003-11-03T20:16:17Z")
> [@](#): > > _Posted by sailor_ > **The UN and individual countries have said they are willing to donate more and to take over more responsibilities so long as the USA steps back but the US government has rebuffed them.** Sailor, you talk a lot ( Posts: 11376) but I don’t see a lot of cites. How about putting your money where your mouth is and giving us a cite for the above. ::mumble grumble:: ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/45 "2003-11-03T20:29:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PhiloVance \* > \*\*Sailor, you talk a lot ( Posts: 11376) but I don’t see a lot of cites. How about putting your money where your mouth is and giving us a cite for the above. > ::mumble grumble:: \*\* I must have missed where we went begging to the UN for help, but they said no. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/46 "2003-11-03T22:52:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PhiloVance \* > **Sailor** , you talk a lot ( Posts: 11376) but I don’t see a lot of cites. How about putting your money where your mouth is and giving us a cite for the above. > > ::mumble grumble:: You know, asking for cites for facts which are notoriously well known and which have been mentinoned many times in this board just makes you look like an uninformed fool. It also irritates me because I have to waste time digging up news cites which are sometimes pretty difficult to find because many news organizations do not let you search more than a few weeks. At any rate, this one was not too difficult. It is amazing that the same people who condemned France for rejecting US demands now say the US never asked for anything. As anyone who is minimally informed should know, Colin Powell (do I need to explain who Colin Powell is?) went to the UN with the intent of getting it to pass a resolution getting it to send money and troops and pretty much rubberstamping what the USA had done. It lead to some acrimonious exchanges with France and with Koffi Annan when they were demanding the USA committ to a rapid transition to Iraqi sovereignty. The USA said that was not in the cards and the whole thing ended with the same disagreement it had begun. > [@](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/22/sprj.irq.intl.wrap/](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/22/sprj.irq.intl.wrap/) > August 22, 2003 > France has poured cold water on U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell’s drive to get more nations to send troops, police and money to help rebuild Iraq. > > Washington’s attempt to win support for a U.N. Security Council resolution in the wake of the bombing of the U.N. compound in Baghdad has been hindered by its insistence on keeping command of the joint military force. > > Speaking on French radio, Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin said the coalition powers should switch from “a logic of occupation to a logic of sovereignty” in Iraq. > [@](#): > > [http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2003/sep/14/wnw\_1-1.htm](http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2003/sep/14/wnw_1-1.htm) > US President George W. Bush on Friday appealed for international assistance in the postwar effort, saying that “no free nation can be neutral in the fight between civilization and chaos.” > > Washington is looking for the international community to send more troops and more cash, and in exchange is willing to offer the UN an increased – but not predominant – political role in Iraq. > > The five powers all agree on the concept that Washington should retain military control over forces in Iraq, at least in the short term, but are far apart on plans for the country’s political future. > > France, backed by Russia and China as well as non-permanent Council member Germany, is leading the charge for the United Nations to take over primary responsibility for overseeing Iraq’s political transition to self-rule. > > De Villepin on Friday called for a quick transfer of power to the Iraqis and general elections by next spring. > [@](#): > > [http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/985494/posts](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/985494/posts) > > New York Times Sept. 19, 2003 12:00 AM > > WASHINGTON - The Bush administration, incensed by France’s demands for greater U.N. oversight in Iraq, is working to isolate France and win a majority at the U.N. Security Council for the U.S. approach, administration officials said Thursday. > > In an echo of a tactic the administration tried earlier this year, without notable success, Secretary of State Colin Powell is stepping up his efforts to enlist the support of Russia, Germany and other nations for American control over the occupation and transition to self-rule in Iraq, even though many of them sided with France in opposing the war. > [@](#): > > Chicago Sun Times September 28 > > The U.S. official said the timeline suggested by Powell was a response to the French. > > French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin, stopped en route to a meeting at U.N. headquarters, refused to answer a question seeking his reaction. > > Germany’s stand, expressed repeatedly by Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, remains that Iraqis should regain sovereignty as soon as possible, but with a ‘‘realistic’’ timeline, Foreign Ministry spokesman Walter Lindner said. > [@](#): > > [http://www.iht.com/articles/110617.html](http://www.iht.com/articles/110617.html) > > The Bush administration, incensed by France’s demands for greater United Nations oversight in Iraq, is working to isolate France and win a majority at the UN Security Council for the American approach, according to administration officials. > > In an echo of a tactic the administration tried earlier this year, without notable success, Secretary of State Colin Powell is stepping up his efforts to enlist the support of Russia, Germany and other nations for American control over the occupation and transition to self-rule in Iraq, even though many of them sided with France in opposing the war, the officials said Thursday. Is that enough citing? It is amazing that the same people who condemned France for rejecting US demands now say the US never asked for anything. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/47 "2003-11-03T23:10:07Z")
With so much time digging for citations I forgot to mention the main point which was that Colin Powel spent an entire week at the UN trying to get what he could in preparation for President Bush’s visit which they wanted to be a triumphant confirmation and approval of US policy where the UN would agree to send lots of money and soldiers. Instead, the US got nothing and Bush had to give one of his empty speeches where he talks about America, motherhood and apple pie in one sentence and about 9/11. Iraq and Osama ben laden in the next, all with a lot of hand waving. You might think he is trying to obscure things and just get you to think that somehow Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and the USA is the reserve of all that is good in this world. In summary: Powell and bush wanted the UN to send money and troops but did not want to release control. The UN told them to go take a long hike on a short pier. And the language used was French. Maybe that is why some of you might have missed it. Or, do I also have to find proof that President Bush has ever been to the UN? ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/48 "2003-11-04T00:01:28Z")
The IHT link ([http://www.iht.com/articles/110617.html](http://www.iht.com/articles/110617.html)) seems rather political for a ‘news’ site, e.g. “The Bush administration, **incensed** by France’s demands…” emphasis mine. The CNN link ([http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/22/sprj.irq.intl.wrap/](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/22/sprj.irq.intl.wrap/)) while the best of your links pretty much quotes France’s Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin, not exactly an unbiased source. The Free Republic link {[U.S. works to isolate France in U.N. council involving Iraq](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/985494/posts)) which in turn is just commentary by a member of Free Republic, but does link to another site ([http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0919us-france19.html](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0919us-france19.html)) which is now unavilable, so little help in your argument. The Inq7 link ([http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2003/sep/14/wnw\_1-1.htm](http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2003/sep/14/wnw_1-1.htm)) incorporates this jewel of a statement: > [@](#): > > De Villepin on Friday called for a quick transfer of power to the Iraqis and general elections by next spring. . Otherwise it supports your contention. I think you need to get out of DC and meet some people in the real world. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Matchka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Matchka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Matchka)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/49 "2003-11-04T00:19:01Z")
My recall is fading, but I’m thinking (again) of the interviews in Full Metal Jacket: IT’S LIKE THESE PEOPLE DON’T APPRECIATE US BEING HERE TO LIBERATE THEM Sorry–couldn’t think of the correct grammatical way to butcher the text, but not the spirit of an entire quote… Y’all can go back to bludgeoning one another now. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/50 "2003-11-04T00:23:14Z")
I have no idea what your point is- - and I am afraid it may just be playing stupid games. Please tell me clearly: Are you denying that the US government went to the UN and tried to get the UN and its member nations to help out in Iraq with cash and with armed forces? Are you denying that France, Germany and other countries set certain conditions for their help, a quick return to Iraqi sovereignty among them, and that the US found these conditions unacceptable? Are you saying that Colin Powell did not spend a week at the UN negotiating all this? Are you saying the facts as reported by those sources are false? Please answer these questions. Ok, I gave you citations as requested. Please now povide _your_ more authoritative citations which show that mine are all a bunch of lies. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/51 "2003-11-04T00:33:47Z")
My previous post was in response, obviously, to Philovance. From the cited link to the International Herald tribune: > [@](#): > > In recent comments, Powell showed exasperation with the French position, especially over what U.S. officials consider a condescending French view that Washington is in love with being an occupying power. He called the French view “nonsense.” In private, he was said to have used stronger language. > > The French response, however, is that France does not enjoy being “the bad kid on the block,” as one official put it, but that it is simply trying to make the occupation of Iraq more acceptable to Iraqis and to other nations, which are being asked to supply troops and aid. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/52 "2003-11-04T01:52:37Z")
I saw earlier the discussion regarding the potential failure of President Bush to secure re-election. A few observations if I may… It was suggested that the state of the US Economy will play a large factor in the polls - and fair enough. If memory serves me correctly, that was the same left hook which sunk President Bush Senior in 1992. Nonetheless, if I may, I’d like to comment upon the two opposing perceptions which are at play here - namely, domestic US politics, and international US politics. I recognise that things have taken a turn for the worse within the USA over the last few years - and indeed, those who have borne the brunt certainly have my empathy - without doubts. And accordingly, those same people have a right within the United States to make their voices heard - loudly and clearly - come election time. But it was pointed out by someone that such a thing could possibly “drown out” the Iraq problem; that the American people would tend to “sweep it under the carpet” as it were. Well, that’s OK… I understand how these things happen. Still, I’d like to offer a perspective from an Australian ally and friend however. There’s an arguement amongst the downtrodden on this globe who would argue, not without merit, that THEIR lot in life is far, far, FAR worse than the lesser priviliged citizens of the United States. (And bear in mind that we Australians don’t fall into this camp thankfully). Still, amongst those poor unfortunates, they would be looking upon the next 12 months of internal US politics with great disdain and contempt I suspect. Their attitude would be along the lines of… “Holy fuck you American assholes… you’ve gone into a country, banged the living bejesus out of it, turned it into an anarchic nightmare where guns and RPG’s rule the night, and now? All you care about is whether you’re gonna be able to afford that 2nd SUV or not? Go and shove a pick-axe up your asses…” Now, I hasten to add, I personally don’t agree with this perception - but you see - what happens when the “people are suffering” arguement enters the political domain is this - there’s always somebody out there (in this case in many places overseas) who are worse off than yourself - and in that context the “people are suffering” arguement becomes a question of relativity. By extension, the really militant extremists who are out there start to think along the lines of “You Americans think that YOU’RE suffering? You don’t know the meaning of the word. We’ll show you what REAL suffering means!” And off they go and start planning another 9/11 or another Bali Bombing - and so on - and so on. Accordingly, it’s a cycle which in some respects is governed by the US Presidential election - in particular, the desire to be re-elected means that international policy and attention by Americans towards the rest of the world takes a back seat for about 18 months every 4 years in favour of internal US politics - and that’s where the window of opportunity presents itself for the bin Laden’s of this world to do their most obscene and horrific planning. Effectively, my point is this - because the US Presidential election is so locked in stone, and so institutionalised these days, there are immense temptations for the American public to take their eye off the “international ball” during the election lead up. And that’s a dangerous thing. It leaves you open to a blind-side attack. In short, the USA either has to totally, and utterly do everything in her power to show the world that she can rebuild a country like Iraq - damn the expense and damn the torpedoes - or hand over the job to the United Nations. If the former is the decision, and it’s allowed to fall from public conscious during the electoral leadup, the wrong signals will be sent I rather think - and that’s what this ultimately has been all about - sending the right signals. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/53 "2003-11-04T02:05:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Matchka \* > My recall is fading, but I’m thinking (again) of the interviews in Full Metal Jacket: > IT’S LIKE THESE PEOPLE DON’T APPRECIATE US BEING HERE TO LIBERATE THEM Seems like a good description of Iraq where attacks are followed by anti-American demonstrations. In one recent case it was hordes of children throwing rocks. It reminded me of Palestinian children. One more case: > [@](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/03/sprj.irq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/03/sprj.irq.main/index.html) > Anti-U.S. chants at attack site > The two American civilians killed Sunday in Fallujah worked for EOD Technologies Inc., a Knoxville, Tennessee, company hired by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to destroy captured Iraqi ammunition stockpiles, the Coalition Provisional Authority said. A third civilian was wounded. > > After the attack, Fallujah residents flocked to the site and chanted anti-U.S. slogans. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/54 "2003-11-04T02:11:24Z")
**Boo Boo Foo** , not to worry. On the evidence, I’d say full attention will be given to Iraq during this election cycle because of all the violence that’ll be going on there. The big problem with this is that Bush could easily turn that in his favor by deciding to stage yet another all-out war starting, say, in September of next year. This way he’d get a nice big fat lift in the polls from the inevitable patriotic response, and off we’d be for another four years of ripping up treaties, destroying the UN, making a further mess of the Middle East, profiteering in Iraq by his buddies, running huge deficits to finance the military juggernaut he’ll build, and having, somewhere along the way, a big financial crisis caused by the massive cost of all of this. Should be fun. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/55 "2003-11-04T02:32:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > \*\* > Indeed, I’ve heard Bill Clinton say on many occasion that the genocide of Rwanda was the single greatest black mark on his presidency \*\* I believe Clinton was right. Actually, I believe that the genocide in Rwanda was the single greatest black mark in the life of many of us (some of us having lived through worst event might be excluded) . I certainly believe it was in mine. We were perfectly aware of what was going on, and what did we do, on an individual level? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/56 "2003-11-04T15:20:37Z")
All in all, a great post. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > \*\*In short, the USA either has to totally, and utterly do everything in her power to show the world that she can rebuild a country like Iraq - damn the expense and damn the torpedoes - or hand over the job to the United Nations. If the former is the decision, and it’s allowed to fall from public conscious during the electoral leadup, the wrong signals will be sent I rather think - and that’s what this ultimately has been all about - sending the right signals. \*\* The problem is this will never happen. This country is on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/57 "2003-11-04T16:38:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Palewriter \* > \*\*There was footage on TV today of Iraqis celebrating the shooting down of the helicopter. That’s disgusting. > \*\* Oh please! I find such hypocritical thinking offensive. Like there weren’t any US citizens celebrating the succesful take over of iraq? Wasn’t Fox news channel airing a video clip of bombings and attacks while the national anthem played in the background? How many THOUSANDS of iraqi soldiers do you think were killed, then buried in their trenches by american soldiers in bulldozers? How many CHILDREN do you think have been killed or maimed since hostilities broke out? How many people here STILL chear this war on? That some iraqi people are happy 17 enemy soldiers were killed seems absolutely no different to me. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/58 "2003-11-04T17:15:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kinthalis \* > \*\*That some iraqi people are happy 17 enemy soldiers were killed seems absolutely no different to me. \*\* The people that killed the soldiers are their enemy, at least they should be. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/59 "2003-11-04T18:37:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > The people that killed the soldiers are their enemy, at least they should be. WTF? Iraqis have attacked Americans and you expect the other Iraqis to side with the American occupying forces? What kind of distorted view of the world do you have? Or is it that I have missed the news where all Iraqis were granted US citizenship and they all, one by one, accepted? ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/60 "2003-11-04T18:42:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quietman1920 \* > \*\*This is the first name I’ve seen since in print since April…and if its the media’s fault, then the media’s a Damn Disgrace. And if its a PR Issue, then whoever’s in charge of setting that policy is a Damn Disgrace. \*\* I remember the scrolling names of the dead at the end of the CBS Evening News during the Vietnam War. It really brought it home. No politician is ever going to let that happen again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068.md?page=4)