# Another 17 U.S. soldiers have lost their lives today **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068 "2003-11-03T01:47:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/61 "2003-11-04T21:40:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*WTF? Iraqis have attacked Americans and you expect the other Iraqis to side with the American occupying forces? What kind of distorted view of the world do you have? \*\* Well sure, they’re only extending the occupation longer. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/62 "2003-11-04T22:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Well sure, they’re only extending the occupation longer. \*\* That’s _faulty defeatist logic_. By attacking and killing our troops, they’re increasing their own desperation, which means that they’re closer to giving up. So the guys who are fighting us are really on our side\* vis a vis\*, limiting the occupation, and by resisting their attacks we are supporting terrorists. -or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/63 "2003-11-04T22:46:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > Well sure, they’re only extending the occupation longer. Is that because the occupation will come to an end when Iraq is put right; like it never was about oil and really was about WMD, and now there aren’t any, the US is just going to mend stuff, put democracy in place and walk away. And do all of that without significant help from the only experts at ‘nation-building’ in the world, the UN ? Damn, that’s a noble and honourable president you’ve got there. What a decent kind of guy! . . I feel so foolish thinking this was a long-term acquisition for good ol’ USA.plc. . . . ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/64 "2003-11-05T01:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > Well sure, they’re only extending the occupation longer. This is just ludicrous and it is scary to think some people are so delusional about the motives and intentions of the US government in Iraq. Does it make any sense to believe the USA only remains in Iraq because some Iraqis are resisting? So if all resistance ceased tomorrow the USA would pack up and leave? Give me a break! The USA has no intention of leaving. It plans to stay in Iraq for decades to come. It plans to control the oil and the economy. It plans to keep military bases there. The only thing which would make the USA change its mind about this is that the Iraqi resistance inflicts loses high enough to make America not want to pay the price of staying in Iraq. The only thing which will get US forces out of Iraq is that the American people decide they do not want to pay the price of the occupation in terms of American lives lost. That is the _only_ way the US will leave and the Iraqis are cheering when they see Americans are paying a price. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/65 "2003-11-05T02:56:53Z")
**sailor** and **World Eater** - you’ve made excellent points, thanks for posting. In fact, thank you to all posters - I don’t post threads to the Pit often, but when I saw the news I felt a real loss. My gut feeling is that the only way the U.S. will back out is if doing so enhances Bush’s chance of winning the next Presidency. I don’t see that scenario happening (we’re pulling out?! The strongest nation in the world with all that firepower can’t get the job done?) Nah, I don’t think so. Bush would be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire (as it relates to his chances of term #2) if the U.S. pulled out of Iraq. So, we’re there for the long run. Now what? We have $87 billion dollars at our disposal - and a hard road looming in the distance. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/66 "2003-11-05T04:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blonde \* > We have $87 billion dollars at our disposal - and a hard road looming in the distance. But that’s just for _this year_. I sure hope Bush can come up with a clever plan that avoids him having to ask congress for _another_ $87 billion dollars come next september. It didn’t go down so well with the voters this time; and what with the election coming up next fall, another unexpected bill could get real awkward for him. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/67 "2003-11-05T04:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*But that’s just for _this year_. I sure hope Bush can come up with a clever plan that avoids him having to ask congress for _another_ $87 billion dollars come next september. It didn’t go down so well with the voters this time; and what with the election coming up next fall, another unexpected bill could get real awkward for him. \*\* Good point there - let’s just crunch those numbers: the estimated population of the U.S. is 293 billion (I’m rounding). So, every person in the U.S. is missing out on around $300 a year if we continue at our current pace in funding the war in Iraq. That doesn’t represent a lot of money to me, but I’m certain it does to those below the poverty line in the U.S. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if those voters walk into the polls. Peace, Paula ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/68 "2003-11-05T05:15:41Z")
CBO analysis of forces that can be realistically used for an occupation and the cost: [http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4515&sequence=0](http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4515&sequence=0) 14 to 19 billion per year for occupation is what they’re figuring assuming a force that gets rotated out after a year. No reconstruction costs, of course. Looks like a rounding error in the DoD budget, frankly. This assumes they’ll be able to substantially reduce the number of troops beginning in the spring of next year. Doesn’t seem realistic at the moment, of course. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/69 "2003-11-05T06:20:44Z")
Does anyone else find it distasteful that after reports of new casualties, Bush goes in front of a crowd and says: “We. will. not. give. up” in that typical grand-standing tone employed by demagogues, and then smirks while the audience applauds. I have tried to develop an insensitivity to what politicians say but this rubs me the wrong way. How about a more solemn oath to continue the fight? These are young people dying everyday, dammit. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/70 "2003-11-05T17:32:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quietman1920 \* > This is the first name I’ve seen since in print since April…and if its the media’s fault, then the media’s a Damn Disgrace. And if its a PR Issue, then whoever’s in charge of setting that policy is a Damn Disgrace. In a tangental thread, as I was listening to the news radio station this morning on the latest Iraq news, the local newscaster tossed out this line, “…Furthermore, the Pentagon has banned all news media from videotaping the return of American bodies from Iraq.” Not sure how accurate this is, since I haven’t been able to dig up a cite, but it does seem consistent with this Administration’s tight spin control… ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/71 "2003-11-05T18:05:45Z")
What has the reporting of factual news events got to do with an elected administration . . . sorry, silly question. [No cameras for US war dead’s return](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3239659.stm) "But the media is being denied access to the return to the United States of the bodies of those who died - because of a Pentagon ban on such coverage. The policy has led to some charges of censorship and concern that the decision has been taken because of the mounting death toll in Iraq. " [\* cf\* Iraq fallen return home](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3196811.stm) ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/72 "2003-11-05T18:27:50Z")
**London\_C** , this response can be applied to what you said as well. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **This is just ludicrous and it is scary to think some people are so delusional about the motives and intentions of the US government in Iraq.** Where did I mention anything about the motives of the US government? \*\* > [@](#): > > Does it make any sense to believe the USA only remains in Iraq because some Iraqis are resisting?\*\* Not at all. \*\* > [@](#): > > So if all resistance ceased tomorrow the USA would pack up and leave? Give me a break! \*\* Of course not. As far as I see it, the US occupying the place is a problem, _and_ terrorists blowing people up to kingdom come is a problem as well. There are a million dynamics to the highly shitty situation over there, but back to my original point of the people that killed the soldiers. I think the people behind that car bomb that blew up the 80 or so Iraqis should be considered enemies by the Iraqi people. I think the fucks that blew up the UN building should be considered enemies as well. These animals are not freedom fighters, the are a scourge to progress. All these people know how to do is destroy and divide, never create, and all their doing is shooting their cause in the foot. \*\* > [@](#): > > The USA has no intention of leaving. It plans to stay in Iraq for decades to come. It plans to control the oil and the economy. It plans to keep military bases there. The only thing which would make the USA change its mind about this is that the Iraqi resistance inflicts loses high enough to make America not want to pay the price of staying in Iraq. The only thing which will get US forces out of Iraq is that the American people decide they do not want to pay the price of the occupation in terms of American lives lost. That is the _only_ way the US will leave and the Iraqis are cheering when they see Americans are paying a price. \*\* As depressed as I am to admit this, I don’t think we’ll leave iraq until it’s under control the way we want it. That’s why I’m eager for that to start happening. If we are going to occupy it for decades, the sooner we start, the sooner those decades will pass and the Iraqis can hopefully have their lives back. Such a twisted horrible situation. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/73 "2003-11-05T18:29:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by litost \* > Does anyone else find it distasteful that after reports of new casualties, Bush goes in front of a crowd and says: “We. will. not. give. up” in that typical grand-standing tone employed by demagogues, and then smirks while the audience applauds. Remember “bring 'em on”? I can imagine a political campaign TV ad which would go something like this: - Soundbite of Bush saying “Weapons of Mass Destruction” - Headline saying “No WMD found”. - Bush soundbite: “democracy and freedom for the people of Iraq” - Newsreporter soundbite: “chaos and insecurity in Iraq” - Clip of Bush “Mission accomplished” - Headline or reporter saying soldiers continue to die daily. - Bush Soundbite: Bring 'em on" - Statistic showing the attacks and death toll are increasing - Bush soundbite: “We will not give up” - Voice says “We think Americans should not continue to die needlessly. It is time to change” Or something like that ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/74 "2003-11-05T18:58:01Z")
**sailor** : Your ad’s a really good idea, but I suspect the hole in the Democrats’ bucket it too big to fix with mere straw. For example, have a look at the election results from yesterday. Look at what’s happened to California – why couldn’t the Democrats circle the wagons and keep this key state out of Mr. Schwarzenegger’s hands? Something has to change from a _party perspective_ or we’re all stuck with President Bush for a long, bloody haul. > [@](#): > > _by World Eater_ > > I think the people behind that car bomb that blew up the 80 or so Iraqis should be considered enemies by the Iraqi people. Funny you should mention that. Here’s a view from another side entirely. > [@](#): > > TEHRAN (Mehr News Agency) - The U.S. Central Command helped 15 Mossad agents involved in the assassination of Ayatollah Mohammad Baqer al-Hakim to flee Iraq, an Egyptian weekly magazine disclosed on Monday. > > Ayatollah Hakim, the leader of the Supreme Assembly for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SAIRI), was killed in a massive car bomb blast in the holy city of Najaf on August 7. The blast left 82 killed and more than 100 wounded. > > The U.S. Central Command was sure that the agents of the Zionist intelligence service [Mossad](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4661.htm) had planned and executed the assassination with the help of some elements from the U.S. and Iraqi spies, Al-Osboa’ weekly said. > > The U.S. Centcom acquired conviction about the plot after examining the explosives used in the operation; the explosives which were highly advanced are used only by Mossad, the weekly added. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/75 "2003-11-05T19:08:40Z")
I’ll need more then that **Mr B**. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/76 "2003-11-05T19:20:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > > I’ll need more then that **Mr B**. Fine. Your answer tells me you’re willing to entertain other ideas. 🙂 I know it’s a shrugging assertion, but will you admit there’s a lot more going on in Iraq than just _insurgency_, and that there may be one or more other players with American blood on their hands? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/77 "2003-11-05T19:23:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*I know it’s a shrugging assertion, but will you admit there’s a lot more going on in Iraq than just _insurgency_, and that there may be one or more other players with American blood on their hands? \*\* Definitely. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/78 "2003-11-05T21:07:53Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by World Eater \* Where did I mention anything about the motives of the US government? [quote] Where you implied resistance would prolong the occupation. > [@](#): > > As far as I see it, the US occupying the place is a problem, _and_ terrorists blowing people up to kingdom come is a problem as well. There are a million dynamics to the highly shitty situation over there, but back to my original point of the people that killed the soldiers. > > I think the people behind that car bomb that blew up the 80 or so Iraqis should be considered enemies by the Iraqi people. I think the fucks that blew up the UN building should be considered enemies as well. These animals are not freedom fighters, the are a scourge to progress. All these people know how to do is destroy and divide, never create, and all their doing is shooting their cause in the foot. Now just wait a minute! We were talking about the people who shot down a helicopter killing 16 Americans and the people who cheered. Let’s go over it again: > [@](#): > > but back to my original point of the people that killed the soldiers. Ok, I see we are on the same page. Please continue. > [@](#): > > I think the people behind that car bomb that blew up the 80 or so Iraqis should be considered enemies by the Iraqi people. I think the fucks that blew up the UN building should be considered enemies as well. These animals are not freedom fighters, the are a scourge to progress. All these people know how to do is destroy and divide, never create, and all their doing is shooting their cause in the foot. Wait a minute! Did I blink? what happened? Where did the helicopter and the 16 dead soldiers go? And why did all these other people take their place? Can you run that in slow motion for me and explain it? Please explain again your original point of why the resistance forces who shot down a US helicopter are the enemies of the Iraqi people and why the Iraqi people feel otherwise and cheer. Remember: helicopter, American soldiers dead. OK? Don’t drift. > [@](#): > > As depressed as I am to admit this, I don’t think we’ll leave iraq until it’s under control the way we want it. That’s why I’m eager for that to start happening. If we are going to occupy it for decades, the sooner we start, the sooner those decades will pass and the Iraqis can hopefully have their lives back. So your recipe for this rape is that they should submit, relax and enjoy what they can. Fine. That’s _your_ opinion. The Iraqis have a different opinion. They have chosen to resist and they are within their rights. They believe they have a good chance of making the Americans want to get out sooner than they might otherwise. I happen to agree with them. I happen to believe that if the Iraqis kill enough Americans there is a very good chance that Americans will decide it is not worth it and will get the hell out. I also believe that with or without the Americans, Iraq has been destabilized and it is going to be pretty much impossible to stabilize in the short term. With or without the USA, Iraq will probably slide further into chaos and civil war and, in whatever measure it does happen, it is 100% the responsibility of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/79 "2003-11-06T00:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **Now just wait a minute! We were talking about the people who shot down a helicopter killing 16 Americans and the people who cheered.** Well we know they are enemies of the US, the point was are they enemies of the Iraqis? \*\* > [@](#): > > Wait a minute! Did I blink? what happened? Where did the helicopter and the 16 dead soldiers go? And why did all these other people take their place? \*\* See above. \*\* > [@](#): > > Please explain again your original point of why the resistance forces who shot down a US helicopter are the enemies of the Iraqi people and why the Iraqi people feel otherwise and cheer.\*\* Well I see these guys as enemies of both the US and Iraq in the same way I view Hamas as an enemy of Israel and the Palestinians. Do you condemn all Palestinians because a few dumb (most likely scared) yahoos cheered 9/11? \*\* > [@](#): > > Remember: helicopter, American soldiers dead. OK? Don’t drift.\*\* Remember that’s not what I’m defending here. \*\* > [@](#): > > So your recipe for this rape is that they should submit, relax and enjoy what they can. \*\* I don’t know what the recipe is, but I’ll tell you all of them taste like shit. If we stay longer we risk losing more troops, and pissing the Mid East off more, if that’s possible. If we pull out soon, we risk a bloodbath, a civil war, or the creation of a terror haven where one didn’t exist. If we stay longer we’ll fix infrastructure, but outside interests will have their hands in everything. If we leave early chances are high that an equally despicable regime will pop up in it’s place. If we leave, we’re damned, and if we stay we’re damned. We shouldn’t have gotten in this bullshit phantom WMD war in the first place. \*\* > [@](#): > > Fine. That’s _your_ opinion. The Iraqis have a different opinion. They have chosen to resist and they are within their rights. \*\* I’m not so sure about this. There is a lot of fear and intimidation going on right now over there, we don’t know what people really believe. \*\* > [@](#): > > They believe they have a good chance of making the Americans want to get out sooner than they might otherwise.\*\* And we know how well Bush listens to public opinion. \*\* > [@](#): > > I happen to agree with them. I happen to believe that if the Iraqis kill enough Americans there is a very good chance that Americans will decide it is not worth it and will get the hell out.\*\* See above. Plus if the economy picks back up, that means 4 more years of Bush, and most likely WW3. \*\* > [@](#): > > I also believe that with or without the Americans, Iraq has been destabilized and it is going to be pretty much impossible to stabilize in the short term. With or without the USA, Iraq will probably slide further into chaos and civil war and, in whatever measure it does happen, it is 100% the responsibility of the USA. \*\* I agree with this, and it has the additional bonus of backing up my original contention that the Iraqis have more enemies then the US over there. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068/80 "2003-11-06T03:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*If we leave, we’re damned, and if we stay we’re damned. > > We shouldn’t have gotten in this bullshit phantom WMD war in the first place. \*\* Well said. And now, what? I think the U.S. administration made a very serious blunder when choosing to attack Iraq - you cannot fight an enemy that is not afraid to die. You would have thought we’d have learned that from 9/11, eh? Religious fanatics who are willing to strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves (and us) up will always have the upper hand. I was watching coverage of the horrible California fires last week and my husband said - well, if the terrorists are watching, they’ve just picked up a great idea on how to take us down. Scary, isn’t it? Peace has to be an option - I would really hate to have my kids grow up in wartime, it was hard enough to explain 9/11. We should pull out of Iraq and use the $87B for U.S. security in our airports and cities, IMHO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-17-u-s-soldiers-have-lost-their-lives-today/211068.md?page=5)