# Another Africa thread hijacked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767 "2011-04-01T13:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/201 "2011-04-02T17:36:54Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I do, and yet what you call a system that prevents you from using accurate words to describe things? > > Do actually believe **Chief Pendent** isn’t a bigot or racist? If he is why shouldn’t one be able to point out this fact? Haven’t you been paying attention? It’s because it would be liking calling him a nigger! Just typing that out makes the baby Martin Luther King cry. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/202 "2011-04-02T17:57:27Z")
> [@Rotlla](#): > > Question for Rand Rover, Shodan, Chief Pedant, and the other scientific racists here: just purely out of curiosity, what racial groups do you believe exist? Do you consider “Malay” (southeast Asian and Pacific) to be a subclass of “Mongoloid”, for instance, or a totally separate group? What about American Indians. And for that matter, Aryan Indians (i.e. dot, not feather)? They’re awfully dark and India’s pretty poor. Let me fight your ignorance. A “racial group” is simply a man-made subjective way to classify people. Therefore, humans can be classified into a number of racial groups from 1 to the number of humans that have ever existed (inclusive) depending on how you define “racial group” and who is doing the classifying. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/203 "2011-04-02T18:11:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Let me fight your ignorance. > > A “racial group” is simply a man-made subjective way to classify people. Therefore, humans can be classified into a number of racial groups from 1 to the number of humans that have ever existed (inclusive) depending on how you define “racial group” and who is doing the classifying. Actually that’s a population group. You’re trying maintain the viability of the failed concept of race by redefining it. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/204 "2011-04-02T18:16:15Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Actually that’s a population group. > > You’re trying maintain the viability of the failed concept of race by redefining it. Back to the old “Rand Rover doesn’t toe the party line and therefore must have an evil motive.” Meh. Boring. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/205 "2011-04-02T18:19:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Back to the old “Rand Rover doesn’t toe the party line and therefore must have an evil motive.” Meh. Boring. That you have an ability to fall for crackpot conspiracy theories, is the usual boring conclusion. Scientific matters are in reality an alien concept to you. ---
**Author:** ![Rotlla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Rotlla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rotlla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/206 "2011-04-02T18:20:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Let me fight your ignorance. > > A “racial group” is simply a man-made subjective way to classify people. Therefore, humans can be classified into a number of racial groups from 1 to the number of humans that have ever existed (inclusive) depending on how you define “racial group” and who is doing the classifying. Trust me, I have no ignorance to fight on the issue of scientific racism. In fact, I’ve spent a fair amount of time and energy learning about the history of it over the years. Thanks for answering my question, though. You, therefore, don’t subscribe to one of those 3/4/5/6 races theories that divide humans into specific, theoretically well-defined groups. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/207 "2011-04-02T18:25:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Ignorance, you haz it in its purest form. You think everyone should just ignore science that reaches conclusions they find uncomfortable. That assumes that those conclusions were arrived at scientifically and that they were replicated scientifically. Anyone have a literature review citing replication of those conclusions? One book does not science nor a philosophy make. Despite the insistence of “true believers”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/208 "2011-04-02T18:27:45Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Do actually believe **Chief Pendent** isn’t a bigot or racist? If he is why shouldn’t one be able to point out this fact? Because no useful discussion will occur if posters are simply hurling insults at each other. If you are unable to actually discuss or refute the ideas that a poster presents without resorting to name-calling, take it up in The BBQ Pit. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Haven’t you been paying attention? It’s because it would be liking calling him a nigger! > > Just typing that out makes the baby Martin Luther King cry. Again, if you feel that the only way you can “win” an argument is to resort to name-calling, then you need to do it in a different forum. I am pretty sure that if we sifted through all of each of your posts, we could find positions that other posters found absurd or ludicrous or contemptible. We are not going to allow those posters to call you names, here, and we will not allow you to get away with such behavior either. If you feel an absolute need to defend name-calling outside The BBQ Pit, then open a thread to discuss it in the [About This Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=2) forum, the forum set aside for such discussion. [/Moderating] ETA: Sorry, I followed a second link and thought this was in Great Debates. The name-calling is appropriate, here, if you feel some need to do so. In rgards to Great Debates, my comments stand. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/209 "2011-04-02T18:27:55Z")
> [@Rotlla](#): > > You, therefore, don’t subscribe to one of those 3/4/5/6 races theories that divide humans into specific, theoretically well-defined groups. I don’t know what you mean exactly about “subscribing” to a theory. I do acknowledge the fact that people have performed studies where the number between 1 and whatever that they picked was 3/4/5/6 and they showed how the racial group a person is in lines up with other characteristics about that person (such as their IQ). I don’t take the existence of those studies as an affront to all that is good and holy. I don’t think they simply must be wrong because they reach the wrong result. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/210 "2011-04-02T18:34:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Let me fight your ignorance. > > A “racial group” is simply a man-made subjective way to classify people. Therefore, humans can be classified into a number of racial groups from 1 to the number of humans that have ever existed (inclusive) depending on how you define “racial group” and who is doing the classifying. However, such “racial groups” that have already been identified, (with the internal inconsistency of changing among three to six different groups–the lumpers cannot even agree on who should be in any given group), have no meaning outside the mind of the person making that classification. Identifying any of those “racial groups” tells us only one thing about the people within it: where their ancestors lived in the most general terms. It says nothing about size, shape, athleticism, intelligence, beauty, morals, or any other category of human interest, because none of those “racial groups” are sufficiently consistent to permit any such declaration to be made with any accuracy. They are nothing more than convenient ways to lump people together without thought to impose social conditions on them. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/211 "2011-04-02T18:36:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Because no useful discussion will occur if posters are simply hurling insults at each other. If you are unable to actually discuss or refute the ideas that a poster presents without resorting to name-calling, take it up in The BBQ Pit. > Again, if you feel that the only way you can “win” an argument is to resort to name-calling, then you need to do it in a different forum. > > I am pretty sure that if we sifted through all of each of your posts, we could find positions that other posters found absurd or ludicrous or contemptible. We are not going to allow those posters to call you names, here, and we will not allow you to get away with such behavior either. > > This topic is now closed in this thread. If you feel an absolute need to defend name-calling outside The BBQ Pit, then open a thread to discuss it in the [About This Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=2) forum, the forum set aside for such discussion. > > This sort of sly innuendo is also inappropriate. > > [/Moderating] This _ **is** _ the BBQ Pit. The GD thread is a-thattaway ----\> ---
**Author:** ![Rotlla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Rotlla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rotlla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/212 "2011-04-02T18:37:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This sort of sly innuendo is also inappropriate. > > [/Moderating] Wait, what? If that was sly innuendo I am apparently so clever that even I can’t recognize my cleverness. I was just giggling at someone’s typo/error for “Pedant”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/213 "2011-04-02T18:38:34Z")
They’re talking about what is and isn’t appropriate for the GD thread. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/214 "2011-04-02T18:39:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > However, such “racial groups” that have already been identified, (with the internal inconsistency of changing among three to six different groups–the lumpers cannot even agree on who should be in any given group), have no meaning outside the mind of the person making that classification. Identifying any of those “racial groups” tells us only one thing about the people within it: where their ancestors lived in the most general terms. It says nothing about size, shape, athleticism, intelligence, beauty, morals, or any other category of human interest, because none of those “racial groups” are sufficiently consistent to permit any such declaration to be made with any accuracy. > > They are nothing more than convenient ways to lump people together without thought to impose social conditions on them. Well, that’s all true once you hand-wave away and refuse the consider the studies that do show a link between IQ and racial group. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/215 "2011-04-02T18:46:55Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > That assumes that those conclusions were arrived at scientifically and that they were replicated scientifically. > > Anyone have a literature review citing replication of those conclusions? > > One book does not science nor a philosophy make. Despite the insistence of “true believers”. And that is what I see so far, that there is evidence of differences in IQ, that is clear, the fact is that if one does take the crackpot conclusions that some reach at face value is silly. Even if one does accept those dubious ideas, that leaves still a huge number of blacks and other minorities that are as intelligent or more than even the average white person, virtually all the claims and “solutions” by the crackpots avoid dealing with this and that is betrayed by all the encompassing platitudes seen here. They are indeed prejudging people. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/216 "2011-04-02T18:47:31Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, that’s all true once you hand-wave away and refuse the consider the studies that do show a link between IQ and racial group. Actually, first one has to demonstrate that IQ means anything, (you would call that hand-waving while I would point out that it has never been shown to have meaning beyond scoring tests), but then you have to actually demonstrate it genuinely applies to the entirety of the purported “racial groups,” something that has not been done. The “race” and “IQ” claims are all smoke and mirrors at both levels. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/217 "2011-04-02T18:52:57Z")
> [@Rotlla](#): > > You must be black, or you’d be able to understand this intuitively. Classy. > [@](#): > > Black people were and have remained a stigmatized minority group; therefore it’s no shock that their reported IQs have not changed. But as their status as a group rose, their IQ scores relative to other groups did not. As I said, this is an indication that there is something going on that is not related to the part of the environmental changes. > [@](#): > > If you disagree with this logic, and if you think IQ testing reveals something useful about the average intelligence of people from different ethnic backgrounds, please explain why this tool revealed something totally incorrect about Irish and Italian people (and, incidentally, Ashkenazi Jews) back then, and why we can nonetheless rely upon its accuracy now. The tool didn’t reveal anything incorrect. Irish and Italians and Ashkenazi Jews, on average, exhibited lower scores than other groups. > [@](#): > > Or else explain how it is that Jews, Italians, and Irishmen changed from dunces on pair with black folk into people as smart as (or in the case of those Jews, even smarter than) white folk over such a historically short period of time. The question before us is why black folks did not do the same. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/218 "2011-04-02T18:53:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, first one has to demonstrate that IQ means anything, (you would call that hand-waving while I would point out that it has never been shown to have meaning beyond scoring tests), but then you have to actually demonstrate it genuinely applies to the entirety of the purported “racial groups,” something that has not been done. > > The “race” and “IQ” claims are all smoke and mirrors at both levels. You’re really stacking up the ignorance here, bub. You seem to be unaware of the studies that show a correlation with socioeconomic status and IQ. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/219 "2011-04-02T18:54:17Z")
One should clarify here: By crackpot I’m not referring to many researchers that publish first in scientific journals, it seems that crackpots prefer to go for the easier “I will publish a book method” first, what I can infer from most serious researchers is that even the ones that look for evidence of differences in intelligence would spit on many of the “solutions” or conclusions made by the crackpots that use their research. ---
**Author:** ![Rotlla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Rotlla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rotlla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/220 "2011-04-02T18:59:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Classy. Thanks! I try. > [@](#): > > But as their status as a group rose, their IQ scores relative to other groups did not. As I said, this is an indication that there is something going on that is not related to the part of the environmental changes. Except, of course, that there wasn’t a parallel change in status. Irish and Italian ancestry are no longer considered to make a person not “white”; black people are still not considered “white”. (That’s why we call them “black”, you see.) > [@](#): > > The tool didn’t reveal anything incorrect. Irish and Italians and Ashkenazi Jews, on average, exhibited lower scores than other groups. > The question before us is why black folks did not do the same. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, if your claim is that IQ testing reveals inherent disparities in intelligence, than either it was incorrect then or incorrect now. Or else a large inherent disparity in intelligence disappeared over a time period too short to be explained by evolution. Perhaps God decided to step down from the heavens and remove the yoke of dumbassery from the previously-benighted Italians and Irishmen? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=12)