# Another Africa thread hijacked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 1, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767 "2011-04-01T13:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/261 "2011-04-02T22:06:21Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > It does not matter is a statement is “racist.” What matters is whether it is true or not. The Bell Curve is not disproved by a book Stephen J. Gould wrote about it. It will be disproved when blacks perform and behave as well as whites. Actually, no. The Bell Curve was disproven when researchers in numerous locales, (University of Wisconsin, University of California at Berkeley, National Bureau of Economic Research, and several other locations), studied the work, discovered that Murray and Herrnstein fudged their numbers to equate separate tests that tested different things, then pretended that they tested for the same results, truncated their graphs to produce "bell"s when the data was actually skewed, and actually included serious flaws in their statistical calculations. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/262 "2011-04-02T22:07:10Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > What I have said is that I do not care if anyone calls me a racist or not because I think the category lacks merit. I see myself as a genetic determinist. During the women’s liberation movement in the late 1960s and early 1970s there was a slogan, “Biology is not a woman’s destiny.” I believe biology is everyone’s destiny. It determines what we want to do, and what we are able to do. However, I have noticed that nowadays practically every geneticist has disavowed genetic determinism. > **[Firing up the nature/nurture controversy: bioethics and genetic determinism](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1734214/?tool=pmcentrez)** The PDF link: > **[Firing up the nature/nurture controversy: bioethics and genetic determinism](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1734214/?tool=pmcentrez)** > [@](#): > > Discussions of genetic determinism, the idea that genes > alone determine human traits and behaviours, have > been around for a long time. So much so, that some > have suggested that arguing against genetic determinism is > like battling the undead: no matter how many times you stab > them, they keep coming at you.1 This is the case despite > practically every geneticist alive having disavowed genetic > determinism. > > … > > CONCLUSION > We live in the era of genetics. Genetic science, genetic > technologies, genetically based diseases, animal and human > cloning, and the hopeful (or frightening) possibility of > designer babies are regular visitors to the news and > entertainment culture. Together with the revolution in > information technologies, and sometimes going hand in > hand with it, the biotech revolution promises to transform > our world. In many cases, discussions about genetic > technologies and genetic information are presented in ways > that suggest the predictive ability of genetic analysis is higher > than it actually is. This might support ideologies of genetic > determinism. Thus, to the extent that we believe that genetic > determinism is not just false but highly problematic, > bioethicists need to be careful not to present ethical > discussions in ways that might promote it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/263 "2011-04-02T22:09:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, no. The Bell Curve was disproven when researchers in numerous locales, (University of Wisconsin, University of California at Berkeley, National Bureau of Economic Research, and several other locations), studied the work, discovered that Murray and Herrnstein fudged their numbers to equate separate tests that tested different things, then pretended that they tested for the same results, truncated their graphs to produce "bell"s when the data was actually skewed, and actually included serious flaws in their statistical calculations. Then why are the goals of No Child Left Behind not being met? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/264 "2011-04-02T22:11:19Z")
Just because Murray’s book tells you what you want to believe does not mean that it proves The Bell Curve. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/265 "2011-04-02T22:13:32Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Then why are the goals of No Child Left Behind not being met? Poorly conceived and poorly implemented. They are no more being met in predominantly white schools than in predominantly black schools (or in predominantly Latino schools in either direction). Learning is very much a cultural issue, rather than a genetic one. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/266 "2011-04-02T22:17:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Poorly conceived and poorly implemented. They are no more being met in predominantly white schools than in predominantly black schools (or in predominantly Latino schools in either direction). > > Learning is very much a cultural issue, rather than a genetic one. Excuses. Excuses. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/267 "2011-04-02T22:32:08Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Then why have the goals of No Child Left Behind not been met? And here it is, the evidence that the crackpot is misusing even dubious research. Not even the conservative Hoover institution sees the issue of race as the main problem with No Child Left Behind. > [@](#): > > Several of those conclusions stand out. First, the nation is making academic progress. \*\*Student achievement is increasing after a generation of stagnation, especially for the disadvantaged students that NCLB sought most directly to help. \*\*Second, as students are learning, we are discovering more about what truly works to raise student achievement. Third, although it would be premature to ascribe achievement gains directly to NCLB, the principles on which NCLB are based provide an empirically sound foundation for serious school reform. Fourth, NCLB contains elements of unfairness, some of its provisions do not work nearly as well as they could, and at least one provision does not work at all. Finally, NCLB should be reauthorized but with major defects corrected. We have outlined with ten lessons to be learned and recommendations for improvement. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/268 "2011-04-02T22:34:58Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Excuses. Excuses. Even an excuse would be helpful for you not owning or explaining away the fact that genetic determinism is mostly for crackpots. ---
**Author:** ![Rotlla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Rotlla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rotlla)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/269 "2011-04-02T22:44:08Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Just because Gould’s book tells you what you want to believe does not mean that it disproves The Bell Curve. Gould cannot explain why everywhere in the world and always throughout history blacks have been characterized by inferior intelligence. Charles Murray can and does. The assertions of The Bell Curve are not counter intuitive. Charles Murray explains what nearly everyone knows to be true, and his explanations are plausible. Irrelevant what you think about the achievements of black folk; the question is whether or not the Bell Curve was disproven; tomndebb asserts that the actual claims were fudged – something I’d have to investigate to verify – but Gould did, in fact, take the thesis of the book apart, piece by piece, and, metaphorically, killed it, lit the pieces on fire, and pissed on them. He showed that nonsense to be nonsense so very clearly that frankly you’d have to be an idiot or just a dyed-in-the-wool flautist clinging desperately to his flautist beliefs to try to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/270 "2011-04-02T22:56:29Z")
Published March 09, 2011 Associated Press The number of schools labeled as “failing” under the nation’s No Child Left Behind Act could skyrocket dramatically this year, Education Secretary Arne Duncan said Wednesday. The Department of Education estimates the percentage of schools not meeting yearly targets for their students’ proficiency in in math and reading could jump from 37 to 82 percent as states raise standards in attempts to satisfy the law’s mandates. The 2002 law requires states to set targets aimed at having all students proficient in math and reading by 2014, a standard now viewed as wildly unrealistic… Duncan said the law has done well in shining a light on achievement gaps among minority and low-income students… “The reality is coming home that you can’t essentially demonstrate very little progress for ten years and then expect all of your progress to occur in the last two or three years,” Whitehurst said. Paul Manna, a professor focusing on education policy at the College of William & Mary, noted that while there are specified goals, what is considered “proficient” in math and reading varies by state. He said the rising number of schools not meeting the benchmarks could become unmanageable. > **[82 percent of US schools may be labeled 'failing'](https://www.foxnews.com/us/82-percent-of-us-schools-may-be-labeled-failing)** > > The number of schools labeled as "failing" under the nation's No Child Left Behind Act could skyrocket dramatically this year, Education Secretary Arne Duncan said Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/271 "2011-04-02T23:00:13Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Then why are the goals of No Child Left Behind not being met? Yikes! I mean even if there are disparities in intelligence by race (which I think is a good possibility), surely you’d agree that culture plays a role. And when you look at the U.S. it’s hard to ignore other factors that would effect school performance other than native intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/272 "2011-04-02T23:04:30Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Especially considering some “black” Americans have the same amount of “white” ancestry as some “white” Americans. Exactly. If you want to make arguments about the genetic superiority of one group versus another, the American situation is the worst possible case. The groups in question are mixed with each other, and even today don’t share the same environment, for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately for our resident race cranks, un mixed African immigrants to the US do better educationally than native white Americans. (I’m not making any claims for any kind of superiority here. Just that the picture is far more complicated than the race cranks paint it. ) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/273 "2011-04-02T23:06:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And here it is, the evidence that the crackpot is misusing even dubious research. > > Not even the conservative Hoover institution sees the issue of race as the main problem with No Child Left Behind. Forgot the link there, [http://www.hoover.org/publications/defining-ideas/article/5543](http://www.hoover.org/publications/defining-ideas/article/5543) Of course even in the FOX report there is no mention of race. There are problems, and those problems are hardly related to race, that issue is shoehorned to fit the sorry views of the crackpots. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/274 "2011-04-02T23:16:18Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Published March 09, 2011 Associated Press > > The number of schools labeled as “failing” under the nation’s No Child Left Behind Act could skyrocket dramatically this year, Education Secretary Arne Duncan said Wednesday. > > The Department of Education estimates the percentage of schools not meeting yearly targets for their students’ proficiency in in math and reading could jump from 37 to 82 percent as states raise standards in attempts to satisfy the law’s mandates. > > The 2002 law requires states to set targets aimed at having all students proficient in math and reading by 2014, a standard now viewed as wildly unrealistic… > > Duncan said the law has done well in shining a light on achievement gaps among minority and low-income students… > > “The reality is coming home that you can’t essentially demonstrate very little progress for ten years and then expect all of your progress to occur in the last two or three years,” Whitehurst said. > > Paul Manna, a professor focusing on education policy at the College of William & Mary, noted that while there are specified goals, what is considered “proficient” in math and reading varies by state. > > He said the rising number of schools not meeting the benchmarks could become unmanageable. > > [http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/09/82-percent-schools-labeled-failing/](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/09/82-percent-schools-labeled-failing/) So 82% of US schools are predominately black, eh? Or they have such a large percentage of black student enrollment that they, and they alone, would cause those schools to fail? Wow. When just 13% of the US population has that kind of clout, I guess “black power” is more than just a snappy slogan! **tomndebb** , I’m not understanding your definition of “racist”. The word is not inherently an insult. If I say, “Bull Connor was a racist government official”, am I using the word in a disparaging way, or in a way that is historically accurate? If a guy calls me a nigger and I call him a racist, are we both in the wrong? And why should we view"racist" as a special no-no word, but continue to use “sexist”, “nationalist”, or “homophobic” with impunity. It makes no sense. Your position has a lot of holes in it. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/275 "2011-04-02T23:16:45Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Excuses. Excuses. We could do an objective experiment that might clear up the debate. Gather a large group of randomly selected white Americans and sell them as slave labor to work on Chinese farms. Subject them to torture, rape, and outright murder if they resist in any way. Insist that the mixed race children that result from this situation have no rights as Chinese citizens and no claim on Chinese identity or culture. Indoctrinate them in an ideology which says that they are inherently inferior to the Chinese, and deny them the opportunity for education or advancement. Do this for a hundred years, and give all the survivors IQ tests. I’m sure you’ll volunteer your grandchildren, nieces and nephews for such a noble experiment. It is in the interest of science, after all. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/276 "2011-04-02T23:16:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yikes! I mean even if there are disparities in intelligence by race (which I think is a good possibility), surely you’d agree that culture plays a role. And when you look at the U.S. it’s hard to ignore other factors that would effect school performance other than native intelligence. Unfortunately the factors coalesce. The way I see it is that the main problem with No Child Left Behind is that it will make teachers even less willing than they were to teach in low income, predominately black schools. Already, half of teachers in those schools leave after a few years. Punishing them for not achieving the same results teachers achieve with white and Asian students is unjust and preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/277 "2011-04-02T23:19:42Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > I’m sure you’ll volunteer your grandchildren, nieces and nephews for such a noble experiment. It is in the interest of science, after all. Oh lord. Now it’s going to start the chorus of how that’s all in the past and why aren’t those people over it already? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/278 "2011-04-02T23:23:36Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > We could do an objective experiment that might clear up the debate. > > Gather a large group of randomly selected white Americans and sell them as slave labor to work on Chinese farms. Subject them to torture, rape, and outright murder if they resist in any way. Insist that the mixed race children that result from this situation have no rights as Chinese citizens and no claim on Chinese identity or culture. Indoctrinate them in an ideology which says that they are inherently inferior to the Chinese, and deny them the opportunity for education or advancement. > > Do this for a hundred years, and give all the survivors IQ tests. > > I’m sure you’ll volunteer your grandchildren, nieces and nephews for such a noble experiment. It is in the interest of science, after all. Your proposed experiment is clever. However, it ignores the fact that blacks in the United States are more prosperous, and healthier than blacks in Africa, and that they have higher average IQs. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/279 "2011-04-02T23:25:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So 82% of US schools are predominately black, eh? Or they have such a large percentage of black student enrollment that they, and they alone, would cause those schools to fail? Wow. When just 13% of the US population has that kind of clout, I guess “black power” is more than just a snappy slogan! Both of us know that the 18 percent of the schools that are meeting the standards are almost exclusively white and Asian. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767/280 "2011-04-02T23:29:09Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Unfortunately the factors coalesce. > > The way I see it is that the main problem with No Child Left Behind is that it will make teachers even less willing than they were to teach in low income, predominately black schools. Already, half of teachers in those schools leave after a few years. Punishing them for not achieving the same results teachers achieve with white and Asian students is unjust and preposterous. That may all be true. But to insist that the root of the problem is nature, not nurture, in this instance is absurd. Like I said, if if there were an underlying truth to disparities in racial intelligence, there are WAY too many other factors at play when you’re looking at NCLB. The dissolution of the black family seems like a blaring one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-africa-thread-hijacked/576767.md?page=15)